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You’re right, the problem is in people tying their worth to somebody else’s interest in them, we were just specifically discussing men. Women taking rejection poorly doesn’t mean than men can.

Both men and women are taught that rejection is an affront to them personally, though through different ways. Men are told that success is partly defined by their success with women, and rejection is a woman calling him a failure. Women are told that men have low standards and are always dtf, so if a guy rejects her then it’s a huge diss.

Those things aren’t true though, and both genders have their share of shit to work through.

Feminism is not cancer. Can you talk about some of the issues that get thrown back in men’s faces?

Yeah it is basic social skills haha. I do understand it though (but do not excuse it), especially with what @Mshuser has been saying.

Rejection sucks for everyone, but if your self worth is tied up in how successful you are when approaching women, rejection becomes a judgement of your value. Instead of hearing “no” (which could be for a million different reasons) they hear “you are not enough” (which would be a mean thing to say), and they react to the latter.

No reasonable person thinks all men are bad.

The belief that women in general should be wary of men in general is NOT feminism, it has been taught for a loooonnnnggg time.

Feminism actually says “it’s fucked up that we’re taught to be afraid of men” and aims to make a society where that isn’t the case. Both men and women want this, as we’ve talked about in this thread.

Step one of that is acknowledging why we’re in the current situation. It’s understanding that women being afraid of men isn’t women’s fault, it’s society’s. It’s the fact that too many men have been raised in a way that they make women feel unsafe.

Step two is examining what society is doing to make things this way. It points out problematic undercurrents in what we teach society, and how those teachings result in people who behave poorly. This isn’t demonizing all men, it’s demonizing behavior and beliefs that SOME (I’d even say many) men have.

Step three is replacing those problematic views with better ones. It’s changing social pressure on women AND men. It’s letting women not feel obligated to be pretty all the time. It’s valuing men who don’t conform to the 6’5" macho man stereotype. It’s dropping toxic definitions of success and how men and women behave. It’s expecting everyone to be kind and value each other’s emotions.

Also, agree that it’d be annoying to be approached by mostly unattractive guys, but the main problem isn’t getting approached, it’s the mental load of needing suddenly manage another person’s emotions. If every unattractive guy came up, took a “no” in stride, and moved on, women would be way, WAY more open to men approaching them.

Yes, I think that is the takeaway, but I don’t think I was clear about which parts were outdated. I agree that there’s an expectation that guys make the first move. This isn’t inherently problematic, until (like you said) getting rejected is taken as a commentary on your value as an individual.

we need to start telling society not to conform men to these roles and not make them feel pressured to be the pursuer all the time, tying his success to that, and finding self-worth through other means.

The main problem is the last two - that your value isn’t defined by your success with women. THAT’S the worldview that needs to change, though I make no claim as to what society’s telling men in this regard. Obviously a PUA is going to tell you the opposite, since they’re selling you something. It’s the same thing as a makeup company telling women they’re ugly - it’s good for business.

Re: society teaching us to be good men, I think we’re actually saying the same thing. Society absolutely tells us something, but I argue that the image of a “good man” in movies/culture is NOT actually a good man. The Hallmark stereotype of the guy continuing to pursue a woman after she’s rejected him (and then eventually getting her) is NOT a good man. Being aggressive is NOT being a good man.

Being a good man is being yourself, even if there is pressure to not be. Being a good man is looking out for others. Being a good man is working to make yourself better. Being a good man is knowing that you have value because YOU think so.

Being a good man is hard. It’s letting go of all the rules that you’ve learned. It’s accepting that you have flaws, and working on them. It’s having empathy for those around you, men and women.

A good man walks up to the bar and orders a cosmo, cause he likes it. A good man approaches a woman and is ok with either answer because his self worth isn’t on the line.

PUA/TRP are an easy answer because they are working within society’s toxic worldview that we want to change. “Be more confident/aggressive if you want to get women” isn’t addressing the core belief: you need to have success with women to have value. That is a lie. If you believe that, you will not have success with women, because YOU believe you need them to have value.

I almost lost my message too haha. Thanks for typing it out again! I agree that guys aren’t usually doing these things with the goal of making girls uncomfortable, and also agree that their intentions don’t excuse the behavior.

I had the misfortune of needing to learn about abusive relationships (my friend was in one), and the book “Why Does He Do That?” was very eye opening for me. It breaks down the mentality of abusive men, with the main punchline being that abusive men have a worldview where they place impossible expectations on their partner. They’re told “you’ll get a beautiful wife who will take care of your every need” and build an imaginary picture of what their wife will do, then when they date an actual human that obviously doesn’t match their imagined ideal, they get mad at her.

I’m not abusive, but after reading the book I was much more focused of why I was feeling upset, and often it was some version of an impossible expectations that I had put on her, e.g. she should have known that I needed a hug right then (even though I didn’t tell her).

I bring that up because I have a pet theory on why so many men feel lost and turn to PUA/TRP, and it’s that they’re operating under an out of date worldview that creates unrealistic expectations. Ultimately, it comes down to what you said: society has not told us how to be good men.

Here’s my practical advice:

1. Learn about women. Learn what women think is the problem with men and with society. Listen to female comedians. Learn about feminism. Talk to your female friends. Watch this playlist: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7EjlefWLnxCzLbBHU4Dz6R

2. Get a hobby that doesn’t involve a screen. Woodworking. Gardening. Get an aquarium. Go backpacking. Learn to ride a unicycle. Try a few out. Do NOT pick something that you think women will think is cool, they are attracted to YOU thinking it’s cool.

3. Go to therapy. You will develop self awareness and become a better partner.

4. Don’t watch porn. It fucks up your brain.

5. Set a time period of at least two months where you will not date and will not think about dating. Dedicate the time to improving yourself.

First of all, I really appreciate the discussion here - I’m a recent reddit transplant and “what would be your suggestion for being less combative?” was such a breath of fresh air.

Frankly, women are right to be afraid of us, and if you understand and accept why then women will like you more.

EVERY woman has had MANY bad experiences with men, because some guys are shitty. Most things don’t rise to the level of being a crime:

• guy gets mad at your for rejecting him
• another follows you around in a store staring
• someone grabs your butt at a concert and laughs at you if you say something

On and on, since before girls hit puberty. Being a woman requires picking your battles. If you reject the wrong guy they might go apeshit, so you say “I have a boyfriend.” Don’t compliment a guy, because some asshole yelled at you for “leading him on.” I appreciate that you’ve talked to women about this - ask them about times guys have been creepy.

Now, it obviously feels bad to be treated as a threat, even though it’s not personal. Don’t fall into the trap of blaming women - they don’t want to be afraid of men, they were taught to be. Shitty men taught them, and they’re to blame.

As men, we need to hold each other to higher standards. We also need to empathize with women - be mad WITH them, not AT them.