Dirt_Possum [any, undecided]

Normalizing violence as political speech is a slippery slope,

Taking violence off the table only benefits the ones who already claim a monopoly on violence.

Violence is already completely normalized as political speech, but only in the direction of it being used by the state and against the people. It’s totally normalized for fascist ICE agents to brutally abduct people off the street, for cops to murder people (especially people of color) without consequence, or to go into homeless encampments beating and cracking the skulls of the people trying to survive there while torching their meager possessions, for small armies of militarized police to kettle and gas protesters (those people who aren’t even using violence themselves but are still doing what they can to oppose its use by the state to conduct genocide), and beating them until they’re literally blind. And this isn’t even beginning to get into the utter normalization of the unimpeded mass murder of people in the global south to more easily steal their resources.

What is not normalized is specifically the use of violence by regular people aimed at the state. That is the taboo. That is what the pearl-clutching liberals immediately denounce as dangerous to “democracy” (because it is a threat to bourgeois dictatorship). But it’s a taboo that has to be broken if there is to ever be any hope of positive change happening within the imperial core. If it’s a slippery slope to normalize violence against the state, then let’s get to sliding down it! The statistics presented in this article, if they’re to be believed, are a hopeful sign.

I’m not sure if you’re joking, but either way there’s a lot that could be said here.

It’s not that Marx hates the poors, which is a bit absurd to accuse him of, but I do think his class analysis of the lumpen is somewhat misguided, and this error is still commonly made by leftists to this day*. Part of the problem is using lumpenproletariat as a catch-all class for people who subsist without participating in productive labor. Within that category there are so many different ways that people might relate to production, meaning there can be huge differences in their class character, hence it being imo problematic to call the lumpenproletariat a class at all. But even if we do, maybe we shouldn’t be lumping all NEETs in with the lumpen.

For example, a NEET who chooses to be NEET because they have a rich (bourgeois or labor aristocracy) family that takes care of all of their needs is going to have significantly different class interests compared to say someone who has lived in destitution most of their life and is forced to turn to pickpocketing, prostitution, or selling drugs in order to survive (the latter few being traditional examples of lumpenproletariat). There are other conditions that can produce NEETS who would have class characteristics more like those traditional lumpen examples or even that of regular proletariat, like people who are barely able to subsist on disability, and have little choice but to live like hermits. In other words, NEETs can be all over the place as far as actual class character, but then again, so can any lumpen.

(*In the linked thread, OP @Frank@hexbear.net was correct. When I said there is an error that leftists make to this day, I am referring to many of the responses he got.)

It can be both theater and something.

Yes, an act can be both theater and make a material difference. This is not though, it is only theater and devoid of anything meaningful or material. He wouldn’t be doing it otherwise because he represents the same ruling class the republicans do, you goddamned fool.

Also get the fuck out of here with your “I’m more leftist than you!” bullshit while talking about how we have to give our explicit ruling class enemies a “pat on the head” for pretending they’re presenting any kind of opposition. Many of us here have been organizing and providing mutual aid for decades, and even if you’re not lying about the actual material work you’ve done (which I doubt), it doesn’t change the fact that your advocating for liberal, bourgeois politicians doing performative kayfabe undeniably makes you also a liberal with zero knowledge of theory or any understanding of what’s actually happening here.

This link should take you there. For future reference though, just go to https://hexbear.net/modlog and where it says “filter by user” just start typing in the name you want to see the modlog entries for and click the right one when it appears.

I agree and would suggest that you not give them the benefit of the doubt just because they fucking say they’ve changed. They have to show it. They have to demonstrate through their actions. Even then, I know it requires some faith to trust them, and I don’t blame anyone who decides against it no matter how much they’ve demonstrated. If you only want to organize with your own folk, you should only organize with your own folk. But whether you trust them or not, some of them really are genuine, and if they are, they’ll still do the right thing even if you don’t or won’t ever give them your trust.

It was a very good comment too, hers usually are. Find it in the modlog if you haven’t already.

I think the sliver of hope was someone-anyone finally just blowing away a CEO like ever CEO deserves (better than they deserve honestly). And none of them look at this guy who did it and see “a fascist” they see a pretty average almost median American politically, infected with many of the same brainworms they also are, obviously none of them recognizing it as such. But they’re still at the beginning of the pipeline. There’s still hope, at least as I see it. Personally I was never worse than a clueless radlib and always thought communism sounded good even as I was being taught it was supposed to be evil, but there are so fucking many leftists including here who were just as bad if not worse than this Luigi. (I don’t don’t want to draw attention if he doesn’t want it, but he did openly post about it, so I’ll go ahead and ask did you see what SorosFootSoldier had to say on that topic?) I get why you only organize with your folk, I understand why that’s the wisest and best decision. But there are still crackers I think we can save from sliding further down that pipeline and stick them on the one with us at the end. Doesn’t mean you have to have anything to do with them, but there are some still able to pull their heads out of their ass and look around. And an event like this, in my opinion? Can help some of them along in doing that.

edit: I wrote all the above before your edit. I don’t know what to tell you frauddogg, I’m not a cracker but I’m not black. I wouldn’t ever fucking sell out a comrade like you, but I wouldn’t ever expect you to take mine or anyone’s word for that either. Call me naive, I also haven’t totally given up even on the mayos, not all of them. They even gave me a little more hope recently when they all in unison had the correct reaction to the fucking CEO getting popped. Maybe you’re right and they’ll forget tomorrow and nothing will come of it. But I still think it’s worth it for leftists to make attempts to use this moment however they can.

Yes! I thought of Cowbee after I posted that. I forgot which instance he came from, but I knew it was one of those others that are federated. I can’t remember or find who it was, but someone not federated, like a fucking .world only user who came over to see when they heard how BAD we are here, but ended up making an account and staying and learning. I think it was in a conversation where Cowbee was talking about making an account on hexbear, so maybe he remembers better.

This shit just happened, what kind of material change could you possibly expect to see yet? These things are never immediate and full, correct material analysis is almost always elusive until after a fair amount of time has passed where we’ve been able to see how things shake out. But how about the reversal on the anesthesia coverage decision, that was certainly a material change that is going to matter to a fuckton of people who have to get surgery. Really, the extent to which even deeper material change comes about as a result of this event all depends on whether or not there are some leftists somewhere who are taking advantage of this moment to seize on the widespread radical sentiment and direct it towards real productive radical outlets. And I’m certain there are some. I’ve talked to some who said they were making some real headway with wavering chuds, and I would like to believe them, but I’d bet there are more in little pockets all over the place now able to push things in directions they weren’t able to before this happened. Like I said, it remains to be seen.

@xiaohongshu@hexbear.net gave me some things to think about when xioa posted them in this thread, in case you missed it:

Instead of seeing the opportunity and the vast possibilities opened up by this incident (far more “normal” people are supportive of left wing position than the left has been crying about for years that everyone in America is too selfish/too stupid to support healthcare rights), instead they chose to focus on the individual traits of the dude (a very liberal way of looking at the whole situation) and selectively ignore that the reaction has been a collective emotional outburst of the working class people who have been yearning to see some kind of justice being done - justice that the left only fantasized about but never delivered.

It seems clear that the only lesson to be learned from here is that if you don’t want the luigi dude to be cheered at, then the left better stand the fuck up and be the change they want to see. Again, I’m not talking about killing CEOs, I’m talking about actually organizing and push for a real change to the system.

And if you’re too afraid to stand up and do something, don’t cry about it when someone else you don’t like foolishly and accidentally did something that resonates with the plights of the working class that he got all the praise instead. There is nothing you can do at this point to change how most people feel about this incident. It’s already too late.

The whole complaint about the reaction to this incident has the sequence of events completely backward: the emotional release that came from the masses happened because it seems like the only “good” thing that has happened in years. In 2016, people were discussing about seriously getting single-payer healthcare. In 2020, people were talking about how the pandemic can potentially bring about universal healthcare. In 2024, nobody - absolutely nobody - was talking about the deteriorating and debilitating healthcare situation during the election cycle. The left wing movement is dead, and people will latch on to whatever that gives them a sliver of hope, however unrealistic it may seem to be.

I don’t really want to litigate specific comments, especially this late at night, but, while I think I see where she’s coming from, I don’t think it’s a shocking overreach that her comments were removed.

Well, I and about 80 other people here disagree. She also couldn’t come back and defend herself since she was banned too.

When you draw a line, some things will be near the line. That’s a pretty unavoidable part of moderating any website.

Good reasoning not to start drawing unnecessary lines.

We’re shitposting to each other on a niche forum, we’re not taking advantage of anything to do anything.

So is it a shitposting forum, or is it the only ideologically pure umbrella leftist hub? Is this just a casual place where we shitpost so the things we sat don’t matter “irl,” or is it imperative that we refrain from praising anyone here who is not in line with our ideals lest we “support” a fascist? The answer is that it’s always whichever one most fits with the argument someone is trying to make. I have spoken with people I met in the lemmyverse over zoom and then as I got to know them better, directly over our phones. They told me I was one of the biggest reasons they became a leftist, and that they learned what a leftist even was while in the lemmyverse. Maybe you’re “not taking advantage of anything to do anything,” but don’t apply your shortcomings to me.

That wording, “writing an essay about how he is actually bad and wrong,” kinda treats the whole thing like a big joke. Why?

It doesn’t at all treat it as a joke. It points out the absurdity of having to prove your ideological bona fides every time you want to post a meme.

The guy retweeted a post mocking trans people. It almost feels like you’re rolling your eyes at the idea that we need to disavow that here, on a site where half of us are trans or nonbinary.

Once again, not at all. We should and do disavow his transphobia. I certainly do as a non binary person. I take transphobia extremely seriously, partly because I have no choice not to. However we are still capable of praising him for what he did, as we should in my opinion (though I’d never punish people for not doing so while it seems there are at least a few here want to punish me for doing so). There are actually many people in this world who are, sadly, surely transphobic, but still get my critical support. While Luigi is absolutely not the same as the Iranian state, the following analogy fits because your implication that I should not have the right to praise him reeks of liberals telling me I don’t have the right to praise Iran, seeing as they are misogynists and more. It is here that I often explain to them the meaning of critical support. I wouldn’t have thought that necessary to do on hexbear. And please don’t be like that wrecker who got banned or the other people just trying to win a bad argument by saying “but but Iran is a totally different thing than some guy doing an adventurism! (no shit?) How dare you even talk about them in the same sentence!” and intentionally missing the point. Which is that the concept of critical support is widely applicable, as it clearly applies in both situations.

That kind of ambiguity is why the mods are taking the stance they’re taking.

That kind of ambiguity does nothing to make me feel safer. I wasn’t even sure I wanted to come right out and announce to people on this site I’m nonbinary (not because there aren’t awesome NB and trans people here, just because I don’t want that used against me at some point by wreckers or fascists from federated instances). I also know my experience doesn’t apply to all non binary people, but especially if you aren’t trans or NB, don’t use us to try to score points. I also wouldn’t say I feel “unsafe” by mods making this rule, but I certainly feel unwelcome because of it. I certainly feel like the overreach is real and obvious, and I’ve already given a big example of a well-reasoned and very thought out comment by a trans woman whose comment got removed for bogus reasoning. That doesn’t make me feel safer here as a queer person, it makes me feel like people here will use me as an excuse to do what they want to do anyway, something I’m painfully familiar with.

A distinction I was careful to make as well if you had read what I wrote.

I looked in the modlog, and this is maybe two comments. It’s not worth having a struggle session over.

The comment and post removal has been going on for longer than this thread has been around, and most of them are now below the recent threshold. For example, I was especially irked by the removal of Awoo’s 80+ upbeared comment near the beginning of the thread. If you look at the modlog, it is no longer visible because so many other modlog actions have happened in the meantime. But I started commenting in response to her before the comment was removed because I had been watching all the other removals that had been happening for the past couple days prior. None of those are now visible unless you look them up by username. It is worth having a struggle session over mods removing posts and banning users for, for example, making really cogent, theoretically consistent comments like Awoo’s.

Fundamentally, moderating what we can say about a CEO-killing transphobe is not an exact science.

You’re right, it’s not. Which is why I can’t get behind the idea of mods making it a rule to remove or ban things that are just a little too celebratory (depending on the mod at the time and their mood) of something when we should be taking advantage of the groundswell in mass support of this individual for their actions.

Oh the irony of such juvenile cringe behavior. lol. Thank you, sincerely, for proving so succinctly how all your insults to the users here are pure

The one thing you crackers can’t answer is what he fucking changed. WHAT DID HE CHANGE?

I’m not a cracker (thank god) but I would say that what he changed was the all-important “conversation,” the “discourse.” It wasn’t OK to openly say that it is a good thing for a CEO to get shot until someone shot one and everyone saw that everyone else just pointed and laughed. That may not have made much material change yet, and maybe it never will (I’m hopeful it might but we’ll have to see), but to pretend like this doesn’t serve as a significant inroad for leftist agitation is missing an opportunity.

We shouldn’t be putting him on a pedestal either way, but we really shouldn’t be removing the posts or banning everyone who says something the slightest bit positive about him.

There are some good .ml users that continuously fight in the posting trenches since they have to see all the .ee and .world libs and sometimes an actual .ml will wander in here and learn something in good faith. But yes, the ease of making an account there and then coming here to freely comment makes it a ripe target for wreckers like this one. To me, it seems crystal clear that at least two of the accounts posting in this thread now are sockpuppets of each other, but I don’t know what tools the mods have at their disposal to spot sockpuppetry if they have any at all. It also seems clear that it’s the same wrecker that infested the last big mod overreach related struggle session. It doesn’t help that the wrecker is ostensibly a sycophant for the side the mods have taken, but maybe that’s by design.

edit. I actually meant this to be a response to @YEP@hexbear.net, so tagging instead.

your politically incoherent slop

Stop harassing me, coward.

“I have nothing of value to contribute so I’ll just whine in response to someone who does!” - you

Stop your harassing, pointless replies to my comments.

you first, asshole.