• TrickDacy@lemmy.world
    584·
    2 years ago

    Honestly who gives a shit if someone thinks you’re gay?

    Especially when it’s because of something fucking stupid.

    I think what this means is that a lot of men out there secretly fear being gay more than anything else.

    A few years ago some redneck moron screamed at me from his enormous diesel truck “f*****” when I was walking with the girl I was boning at the time. What I translated it to was “you look physically fit and it angers me that I look much worse than you, especially because I wish I could sleep with a woman who looks like that.” It actually was kind of flattering even though they wanted to hurt me.

    • kase@lemmy.world
      16·
      2 years ago

      Exactly. As a gay dude, I’m afraid of being perceived as gay because of violent homophobes. Other guys are afraid of being perceived as gay because they are homophobic. We are not the same.

    • Facebones@reddthat.com
      5·
      2 years ago

      Can confirm as a pervert whose gone to “adult video stores,” a LOT of the people who are loudly and violently anti-gay in public can be found lurking in the dark halls of the booths.

    • lseif@sopuli.xyz
      4·
      2 years ago

      i agree, who cares. unfortunately some people do, and do a hatecrime because of it.

  • Jo Miran@lemmy.ml
    401·
    2 years ago

    I just went shopping with my wife to Anthropologie and I picked up a shawl for myself because it’s cold as fuck in Wyoming (most years) and that shawl is cozy/comfy as fuck. If that makes me gay, then at least I’ll be warm and gay.

    • violetraven@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      8·
      2 years ago

      So imagine that, but with clothes/PJs/etc. Like I never knew things could feel so cozy. You know that stereotypical Hallmark, dog-in-front-of-the-fireplace-in-silk-pajamas? This is obtainable for all of us.

    • MacN'Cheezus@lemmy.todayEnglish
      2·
      2 years ago

      It’s not being warm that makes you gay, it’s buying a shawl from Anthropologie.

      Real men wear scarves from K-Mart.

      • Jo Miran@lemmy.ml
        1·
        2 years ago

        Due to my ignorance I called it a shawl. It seems it’s a “long cardigan sweater”. So, a sweater with oversized neck that acts like a scarf, but it’s almost as long as a duster (reaches my calves and I am 5’11").

        PS: Are there any Kmart stores left open?

  • CaptainProton@lemmy.worldEnglish
    23·
    2 years ago

    There is no greater show of dominance than penetrating another man’s rectum. All true alphas know this. Betas fear they’ll like it.

  • Waluigis_Talking_Buttplug@lemmy.world
    213·
    2 years ago

    Okay this is the perfect post for me to share my hypothesis that Elon Musk is an asshole, but is doing it in such a way that he panders to people that listen to Joe Rogan so they stop thinking electric vehicles are just for women and gays.

    Remember how brutal society was to male Prius owners for so long?

    Again, he’s most definitely a real asshole, but some of his dialouge seems way out of left field, almost like a caricature of a generic dude bro

    • moon@lemmy.ml
      91·
      2 years ago

      Another Elon must be playing 4d chess comment. It’s not that his PR team tricked nerds and later popular culture into thinking he’s a revolutionary Iron Man smart boy, it’s that he’s playing a character. It’s satire.

    • violetraven@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      5·
      2 years ago

      Sounds plausible, but I feel like it’s just him, especially considering his narcissistic tendencies toward companies he’s owned and had to have the title of founder as if he made those widgets himself

  • BOMBS@lemmy.worldEnglish
    136·
    2 years ago

    I think this may be a result of not wanting to lose some male privilege. Caring about others in a passive way that isn’t aggressive or violent is seen as feminine, so they would be lowering their social status. It’s ridiculous that that could be the case. We really need to destruct gender-based privilege.

  • SeabassDan@lemmy.world
    61·
    2 years ago

    Was there a noticeable difference between straight men and gay men back then in how they dressed?

  • NeuronautML@lemmy.ml
    810·
    2 years ago

    Let me fix that for you, the overwhelming majority of straight men in medieval/renaissance times in Europe (judging from the ethnicity of the painting and the blue fleur de lis pattern) were agricultural peasants, who dressed in mostly filthy tunics/coifs and if they were lucky, boots, and ate hard bread and vegetables, very rarely meat.

    Some of them were a little better off and wore armor.

    The 1% ultra wealthy dressed like in the picture. So I’m deducing what this picture calls straight actually means very wealthy. Some of the very wealthy were famously gay too so it doesn’t actually make sense.

    It comes off as bigoted because the author seems like he really wanted to make a generalization against straight people, when actually, it’s a minority of people who have this attitude, certainly not representative of straight sexuality, or even men in general. i guess it isn’t bigotry when it’s against a non minority group, right op ?

    Your own internalized bigotry missed the opportunity to make a good point about not using bigotry to prevent oneself from doing their part for climate change. This us vs them mentality is exactly the reason why climate change is a divisive issue and you’re contributing to that divisiveness.

      • NeuronautML@lemmy.ml
        11·
        2 years ago

        I honestly don’t care about the opinion in the snippet. It’s not meaningful the amount of people not using reusable bags because it’s seen as gay. They exist, but they’re not statistically meaningful at all. It’s irrelevant.

        Plus anyone who says new research has been published and makes a statement without publishing such research is not to be taken seriously. I found the study they were talking about, Gender Bending and Gender Conformity: The Social Consequences of Engaging in Feminine and Masculine Pro-Environmental Behaviors. Basically this conclusion was reached on a self assessment study, based on 150 people reading six short stories of “a day in the live of” and some online written questionnaire. I’ll leave you to it to determine how seriously you think this study demonstrates the aforementioned conclusion.

        I’m talking specifically about the bigotry behind the meme. Trying to pigeonhole people with a false equivalency like that.

      • NeuronautML@lemmy.ml
        11·
        2 years ago

        I envy your ability to be able to focus so specifically on what you’re looking to hear, but yes. Not all men is part of the message. Not the whole message, but definitely a part of it.

      • defunct_punk@lemmy.world
        513·
        2 years ago

        If men don’t do XYZ because they’re afraid of being perceived as gay, shame the people who have created a society where being perceived as gay is something to be afraid of. The men here saying “I’d like to carry a reusable bag but am afraid of the consequences of people thinking I’m gay” are victims here.

        • enkers@sh.itjust.works
          191·
          2 years ago

          First of all, I find the premise that other people would think that dubious at best, but let’s assume it’s true. What are the consequences of someone else thinking you’re gay? Are you the victim of thought-crime? This sounds more like self victimization.

          • Zorque@kbin.social
            35·
            2 years ago

            Its called social stigma. Its been a thing ever since socialization has been a thing. Social pressures are a very real thing. Its not like men woke up one day and decided “you know what? I’m gonna be homophobic today, sounds like a real trip!”

            Obviously personal choice is a factor, and a major one at that… but its far from the only one.

          • defunct_punk@lemmy.world
            26·
            2 years ago

            Lot of irrelevant content here.

            I find the premise that other people would think that dubious at best

            Not relevant. What matters is that the men surveyed felt like they would be thought of that way.

            What are the consequences of someone else thinking you’re gay?

            That also isn’t a rebuttal to my argument. What matters is that these men feel like they’ll be thought of as gay and they feel like that’s a bad thing. These feelings don’t form in a vacuum. They’re taught and reinforced to people in society over generations.

            Let’s suppose that the poll said, “8/10 of men are afraid of wearing slim jeans out of fear of being called gay.” Would it not be the obvious conclusion that they’re victims of the patriarchy^1. Neither of the two actions are exclusive to being gay in any way, but society teaches individuals to associate the two.

            1. Patriarchy not being the worship of male over female but the masculine over the feminine. See why traditionally feminine-acting men achieve less success than masculine men, or masculine women over feminine women.
          • Zorque@kbin.social
            17·
            2 years ago

            The joke is contingent on linking completely unrelated factors. If you don’t, the joke doesn’t make sense. Its based on accepting the premise that sexuality has literally anything to do with environmentalism or responsibility.

            Sure, its a premise posited by those mired in toxic masculinity… but why accept that premise? That is the core of the joke, accepting a premise that is wholly false.

              • defunct_punk@lemmy.world
                11·
                2 years ago

                Not the person you’re replying to, but I made the original comment in this thread. I made another reply about how this meme’s conclusion is flawed, but its premise is too. And it (inadvertently, I don’t think OP had any malicious intentions) erases centuries of homophobia in the process.

                The basic argument being made here hinges on the fact that the person in the top picture (Louis XIV, I belive but I was never good with monarchy) is wearing items associated today as being feminine and says that modern men have regressed in their sexual security for being too afraid to dress that way, but ignores the fact that those items didn’t have those connotations at the time. It isn’t like King Louis said “yeah I know these shoes make me look gay, but I’m going to wear them anyway.” It’s a false comparison between two tome period, attitudes, societies, etc. being made.

        • bstix@feddit.dkEnglish
          121·
          2 years ago

          That’s projection of insecurity rather than the fault of a society. Nobody would call a guy gay for using a reusable bag, except for the guy who’s afraid of other people doing that.

        • EmergMemeHologram@startrek.website
          5·
          2 years ago

          When I was a kid “that’s gay” and calling people “fags” was very very common. Even in The Office Micheal calls stuff “faggy”.

          It was pretty heavily shamed and my dad was very worried my brothers or I might turn out gay if we played with our sister’s toys. I had an uncle say to be careful or we’d turn out with “limp wrists” and he did that stereotypical gay wrist gesture.

          And does anyone else remember “metrosexual”? I got called that because I liked wearing nice clothes and putting product in my hair (growing up the expectation in the town I was from was that men tucked in their shirts and made themselves look nice, so that being borderline gay confused the heck out of me).

          Nowadays I never ever hear that kind of language (except for online trolls), and that family is very much fine with LGBTQ people (except still fairly confused on the trans parts).

          Progress has been slow buts better than I thought it would be as a kid — even the Pope preaches acceptance of gay people (though this gets him some hate).

          • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
            3·
            2 years ago

            Yeah as a trans woman I was beaten up for being feminine as a kid. Nothing like how it was for older generations, but I definitely remember it. I remember learning to fear femininity in any form including looking nice in a polished masculine way because it was seen as gay and queerness came with ostracism or at least some people being uncomfortable with you.

            It’s easy to forget that that era was a thing, but jeez I remember so many jokes about how anyone who drove a Prius had to be gay, ironically from the same people who constantly whined about gas prices.

            • EmergMemeHologram@startrek.website
              1·
              2 years ago

              I’m so sorry you had to go through that, I was a straight kid and got pushed around for the mere accusations, I can’t imagine how it feels to be beaten up for who you actually are inside.

              For what it’s worth, one of my best friends is trans and all my family mentioned above was very nice to her at my wedding, so at least in some circles people really have changed (my family was never hateful, just ignorant before). I wish I could say it was universal.

            • Buelldozer@lemmy.today
              21·
              2 years ago

              I’m probably going to regret this comment but I think “homophobia” is too strong of a world for things like W&G. The people who wrote and acted in the show weren’t “persistently and unreasonably afraid” of Gay people. What the show did was play on stereotypes but it used them in ways that were not meant to be directly and intentionally hurtful. It made the show possible and allowed a wide audience to be exposed to Gays as normal and human. It also gave the many people who didn’t know any gay men a face, Eric McCormack’s, instead of whatever image they had in their head.

              W&G wasn’t high art but it was a decent show for its time and it served to advance the cause as it existed in the late 90s and early 2000s.

              In fact I’d argue that W&G was done in the same vein as shows like “Sanford and Sons” and “The Jeffersons”! Through their existence and popularity they were able introduce and then humanize a previous out group. It’s easy to view them years later and see them as flat, cringe, or naive but they were the shows that were possible at the time and the good they did far outweighs the decades later criticisms.

              I know its tough, as a society we have so much farther to go, but don’t lose sight of how much progress has been made. We’ve come a very long way in the last 35 years.

                • Buelldozer@lemmy.today
                  12·
                  2 years ago

                  Will & Grace undercut the gay community at every chance to make straight people laugh.

                  Yes it did and I thank you for expressing it in such a clear way; it’s what I was floundering towards with my own comment. Still, this is the pattern of the early shows centered around minorities; the stereotypes are played like a banjo with the intent of making the show popular with a wider audience. With that exposure comes tolerance and what normally follows tolerance is acceptance.

                  It would have been fantastic if those shows would have been made to the modern standard but a show built to a 2023 standard would absolutely not have been playing on NBC in 1998. It wouldn’t even have been made let alone been playing in a PrimeTime slot. The wider audience simply wasn’t ready and wouldn’t have accepted such a show.

                  Homophobia

                  Respectfully we may have to agree to disagree on this. What you linked are validly sourced but IMO they’ve been updated so far that they’ve lost their meaning. The word “phobia” has a set clinical definition and what we’re discussing simply doesn’t fit.

                  Harvard Medical defines a phobia like this: "A phobia is a persistent, excessive, unrealistic fear of an object, person, animal, activity or situation. It is a type of anxiety disorder. A person with a phobia either tries to avoid the thing that triggers the fear, or endures it with great anxiety and distress. "

                  Take that pages example of Agoraphobia - "Agoraphobia is a fear of being in public places where it would be difficult or embarrassing to make a sudden exit. "

                  In short having a “phobia” requires fear and that fear cannot be temporary nor can it be reasonable. So then Homophobia is when someone has an unreasonable and persistent fear of Homosexuals. Those elements are simply not present in Will & Grace.

                  To press the point there simply isn’t a grammatically or clinically valid function that downgrades the meaning of the word “phobia” when you prepend it with “Homo”; the word is being misused.

                  The problematic behavior is real enough but what is often labelled as homophobia is really bigotry or prejudice. Bigotry being intolerance that is inconsistent with facts, while Prejudice is holding a preconceived judgement or conviction. Side note: Prejudice isn’t strictly negative, one can be prejudiced for as well as against.

                  So shows like Will&Grace were watched by people with prejudice but it gave them exposure that removed their preconceptions. This shifted many people away from their prejudice and what’s left are the Bigots, who know what the truth is and don’t care, and the Homophobic, people who are actually and for real afraid of Homosexuals.

                  It may seem academic but I think these distinctions matter because grouping all of these people together stymies communication and hinders progress. The Phobic literally cannot control their fear, at least not without therapy and possibly drugs. The Prejudiced are simply ignorant and holding an opinion based on that ignorance, their prejudice can be corrected by educating them and removing their ignorance. The Bigoted are the real problem, they are the ones who’ve been educated but refuse to change their opinions or behavior.

                  The Bigots are the problem and they need to addressed clearly and directly.

            • EmergMemeHologram@startrek.website
              1·
              2 years ago

              I think I have to give some of those shows a pass, simply because as a small town straight kid Will & Grace and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy were the first gay people I ever saw.

              I distinctly remember my brother put them on as a joke and then we all sat and watched them and learned gay people weren’t that different.

          • stinerman@midwest.socialEnglish
            1·
            2 years ago

            A friend of mine’s brother came out to his parents and before they had processed it (they’re accepting now), they blamed it on my friend’s refusal to include him when my friend played football and such other manly pursuits.

    • ysjet@lemmy.worldEnglish
      5·
      2 years ago

      The problem with this viewpoint is that in this case, these people are both the victim AND the aggressor. It’s an entirely self-made problem for them, which is precisely what being mocked here.