overarching conversation is about how we prevent horrific crimes like gang rape is a choice a lot of men are making in here.
That is not how the conversation is framed. The conversation is framed on shaming and bullying all men, because some men are rapist. Why are you surprised that many react negatively to it?
If you feel it’s more important to soothe men’s hurt feelings about being in the same group as most rapists rather than focusing on how we reduce rape, y
Do you remember the bear in the woods?
If the narrative (in the mass media) was about reducing rape, it would be focused on HOW to do it. Not on tar and feather. This is not productive, this is airing anger.
I live in the EU (location is important in rape prevention discussion), a country in dead center of it. There was once a panel about rape prevention in tv, some minor politician, that’s it.
Noone really offers any solutions, even in this thread, so I can well damn start.
There are multiple reasons why people commit rape, how they do, why thy feel enabled. Those are ALWAYS tied to the culture, as law doesn’t prevent crime, only dictates punishments.
Do we agree on that?
Lets distinguish native rape crimes from foreign-born rape crimes, and focus only on the first (example, Germany, 40% perpetrators are foreign born).
Continuing on our example, Germany, when asked and studied, convinced rapists often turn out to be societal “losers”, with reinforced online presence especially in “incel” and similar circles, including blackpill etc communities. Even the underground ones. When studied, psychologists often ascribe the crime to entitlement or desire for domination. The future rapists feel validated by anonymous people online, until the thought of commiting rape normalizes in their heads.
I can’t be the only person who thinks the solution to this particular portion of the problem (in our example likely the largest) is quite simple: mandatory online ids, that remove the possibility of anonymous circles. Break the enablers group.
rapists rather than focusing on how we reduce rape,
Me
Okay, lets focus on reducing rape then. Gives an example.
Also you
The majority of rapists are men though.
Okay. Can we get back to taking about reducing rape? I gave a proposal, an okay analysis of one facet of it, do you have an opinion on it? Your own thoughts? If you do not want to share them, then that is also okay, but I do believe sincerely that calling “we should focus on it” and then not focusing on it, is not going to be helpful.
The conversation is framed on shaming and bullying all men, because some men are rapist. Why are you surprised that many react negatively to it?
No, let’s be clear here. You are complaining that the majority of rapists are men and that people are accurately pointing that out.
There’s two direct approaches that are being actively discussed here - punish rapists appropriately and teach our children about consent and respecting boundaries.
No, let’s be clear here. You are complaining that the majority of rapists are men and that people are accurately pointing that out.
I dont think so? At least that was not my intention.
I do agree that #notallmen is reactionary.
I also believe that the media pressure is calling all the men rapists.
I was trying to convey that having any kind of movement (because to decrease the rape rate, we will need to have a grassroot movement to push the issue) that alienates part of society, will not be successful. And campaigning on hurting the feelings of men is a bad, pointless idea. Why do it. What for? That’s not solving the problem.
I will reply to the second part separately, it will be easier that way
There’s two direct approaches that are being actively discussed here - punish rapists appropriately.
Punishment is reactive. No law prevents crime. Even capital punishment did not lower the crime rate to 0.
USA has 2.5 times higher rape rate than Germany (and Germany has no means no laws, that meant to help reporting rapes).
It could be that - if that is your country - you need stricter judicial punishments for rape! But do note that is not the ultimate solution. It can be one of first steps necessary in your country, but won’t be the last.
our children about consent and respecting boundaries.
Again (comparing Germany and USA rates) this seems to be step in correct direction, but at best it will get you somewhere in the ballpark of Germany rate (progress, but not ideal).
I do believe my proposal (mandatory online Id) would be a next step in the solution - but then I am stomped.
Even capital punishment did not lower the crime rate to 0.
Harsher sentencing doesn’t necessarily help beyond a certain minimum level required to make people consider it a meaningful punishment. The more important thing is consistent and vigorous application of the law. If people aren’t even being investigated, let alone charged or convicted, they’re going to feel emboldened to continue offending.
40% of foreign born convicted offenders doesn’t sound as a surprise, as it still make 60% of national convicted offenders (despite our education, culture, and other similar things we use to think ourself different). Also, the majority of “loosers” in the convicted people could hide some inequality (“winners” being protected).
The cases I personaly know aren’t representative. But they happend in the middle class, by family members, and the victims were requested to keep silence by their whole family. To protect the honor and integrity of the family, and because they “would be responsible” of spliting the family. And if the victim don’t go to police, their is “no case” (officially, in the stats)…
Also, when the accused is from high class, they are rarely convicted. Most find a way to escape it, even when as Dominique Strauss-Khan the facts are clear (you have heared about it, but you forgot); their money and power allow them to avoid infamy. Not condemn, so not part of the numbers.
Also, the number of cases rising from the past let me think their are not more cases now thanks to Internet, but that Internet allows victim to unite so they dare speak. Restricting internet anonymity could reduce this and turn them back to silence, which would make less cases in tribunals and papers, but most likely more cases in real.
But so, I feel like giving to kids an education about this, and letting them know they have spaces to talk about the problems they may live or witness, and providing such spaces (not only for kids) to listen them anonimously, and accompany them ; is an easy and cheap step which could help a lot. Or am I wrong?
Germany rape rate per 100k is higher than South Korea. Are you asking for a cwtch all magical solution from the start? I’m not a god.
Also, you sound like a white nationalist, so fuck off.
(Me literally making sure noone would try to go that way)
Same to you too I guess (apparently mod is biased that I am not allowed to use the same words as you).
And I do find it abhorring that you’re going for bullying and airing your anger instead of trying to even discuss how bring the solutiin into existence
You blamed rape on “foreign-born” people, and said it was a “cultural problem”. Considering that you also used the prosecuted rate (which would inherently target minorities by virtue of systemic injustices and bias your results) as opposed to using something that would more accurately show the true population of sexual assaults (such as reported sexual assaults), it kinda tips your hand that you’re dogwhistling white supremacy talking points.
Also, I point out South Korea because your solution sucks. A better solution is to not protect sexual assaulters. Fun fact, most sexual assaults aren’t prosecuted, and even more aren’t reported, and you know who gets shit on for that? Women! I hear from men, more often than I should, that women should report their assaults, and in the same breath, talk about how they have to prove they were assaulted. And if you think about that, like really think about it, having to find the proof you were assaulted is fucking insane. The police constantly lose rape kits or don’t even fucking do them. Accusers are harassed nonstop. People speculate about what the woman did to get herself into that situation, but never the fucking man. No, a false accusation could ruin his fucking life, but being sexually assaulted somehow means you have to be the one to prove a crime happened.
Why is it so fucking hard for people to wonder why sexual assault is so underreported?
You blamed rape on “foreign-born” people, and said it was a “cultural problem”.
Please read my post again. I wrote that according to statistics about 40% of rapes are committed in Germany by foreign born people, and that I literally will ignore it for the rest of my post. Like literally literally.
What are you arguing with? Statistics? Me saying I am going to ignore that because it could be tainted, and then quoted psychologists reports that only targeted native Germans, again ignoring foreign born pops to not taint?
After removing the foreign born population from the discussion, I wrote that rape occurrence is directly related to culture of the country/people (meaning, again, ignoring foreign borns part because that could be tainted).
And then you came, swinging some white supremacist shit.
such as reported sexual assaults)
Literally the number I used.
Also, I point out South Korea because your solution sucks
Why? You gave no argument nor reason why it would suck.
The police constantly lose rape kits or don’t even fucking do them. Accusers are harassed nonstop
Literally what I called culture.
Now you are ascribing USA police culture of rape perpetrator protection to German police. Excuse me, but I know nothing of USA’s. Literally (I keep using this word a lot when replying to your comment, it is frustrating) mentioned that in my first post.
That is not how the conversation is framed. The conversation is framed on shaming and bullying all men, because some men are rapist. Why are you surprised that many react negatively to it?
Do you remember the bear in the woods?
If the narrative (in the mass media) was about reducing rape, it would be focused on HOW to do it. Not on tar and feather. This is not productive, this is airing anger.
I live in the EU (location is important in rape prevention discussion), a country in dead center of it. There was once a panel about rape prevention in tv, some minor politician, that’s it.
Noone really offers any solutions, even in this thread, so I can well damn start.
There are multiple reasons why people commit rape, how they do, why thy feel enabled. Those are ALWAYS tied to the culture, as law doesn’t prevent crime, only dictates punishments.
Do we agree on that?
Lets distinguish native rape crimes from foreign-born rape crimes, and focus only on the first (example, Germany, 40% perpetrators are foreign born).
Continuing on our example, Germany, when asked and studied, convinced rapists often turn out to be societal “losers”, with reinforced online presence especially in “incel” and similar circles, including blackpill etc communities. Even the underground ones. When studied, psychologists often ascribe the crime to entitlement or desire for domination. The future rapists feel validated by anonymous people online, until the thought of commiting rape normalizes in their heads.
I can’t be the only person who thinks the solution to this particular portion of the problem (in our example likely the largest) is quite simple: mandatory online ids, that remove the possibility of anonymous circles. Break the enablers group.
This post is framing the conversation around preventing rape and specifically says it is not all men.
The majority of rapists are men though.
Removed by mod
You
Me
Also you
Okay. Can we get back to taking about reducing rape? I gave a proposal, an okay analysis of one facet of it, do you have an opinion on it? Your own thoughts? If you do not want to share them, then that is also okay, but I do believe sincerely that calling “we should focus on it” and then not focusing on it, is not going to be helpful.
No, let’s be clear here. You are complaining that the majority of rapists are men and that people are accurately pointing that out.
There’s two direct approaches that are being actively discussed here - punish rapists appropriately and teach our children about consent and respecting boundaries.
I dont think so? At least that was not my intention.
I do agree that #notallmen is reactionary.
I also believe that the media pressure is calling all the men rapists.
I was trying to convey that having any kind of movement (because to decrease the rape rate, we will need to have a grassroot movement to push the issue) that alienates part of society, will not be successful. And campaigning on hurting the feelings of men is a bad, pointless idea. Why do it. What for? That’s not solving the problem.
I will reply to the second part separately, it will be easier that way
No one is campaigning on hurting the feelings of men. Rapists can use some hurt feelings and some fucking jail time though.
Punishment is reactive. No law prevents crime. Even capital punishment did not lower the crime rate to 0.
USA has 2.5 times higher rape rate than Germany (and Germany has no means no laws, that meant to help reporting rapes).
It could be that - if that is your country - you need stricter judicial punishments for rape! But do note that is not the ultimate solution. It can be one of first steps necessary in your country, but won’t be the last.
Again (comparing Germany and USA rates) this seems to be step in correct direction, but at best it will get you somewhere in the ballpark of Germany rate (progress, but not ideal).
I do believe my proposal (mandatory online Id) would be a next step in the solution - but then I am stomped.
Yes that is directly being called for here in the US about this issue.
Harsher sentencing doesn’t necessarily help beyond a certain minimum level required to make people consider it a meaningful punishment. The more important thing is consistent and vigorous application of the law. If people aren’t even being investigated, let alone charged or convicted, they’re going to feel emboldened to continue offending.
Hello from Europe too,
40% of foreign born convicted offenders doesn’t sound as a surprise, as it still make 60% of national convicted offenders (despite our education, culture, and other similar things we use to think ourself different). Also, the majority of “loosers” in the convicted people could hide some inequality (“winners” being protected).
The cases I personaly know aren’t representative. But they happend in the middle class, by family members, and the victims were requested to keep silence by their whole family. To protect the honor and integrity of the family, and because they “would be responsible” of spliting the family. And if the victim don’t go to police, their is “no case” (officially, in the stats)…
Also, when the accused is from high class, they are rarely convicted. Most find a way to escape it, even when as Dominique Strauss-Khan the facts are clear (you have heared about it, but you forgot); their money and power allow them to avoid infamy. Not condemn, so not part of the numbers.
Also, the number of cases rising from the past let me think their are not more cases now thanks to Internet, but that Internet allows victim to unite so they dare speak. Restricting internet anonymity could reduce this and turn them back to silence, which would make less cases in tribunals and papers, but most likely more cases in real.
But so, I feel like giving to kids an education about this, and letting them know they have spaces to talk about the problems they may live or witness, and providing such spaces (not only for kids) to listen them anonimously, and accompany them ; is an easy and cheap step which could help a lot. Or am I wrong?
Hey, uh, quick question, dipshit: Does South Korea, with its mandatory online IDs, have a sexual violence problem?
Also, you sound like a white nationalist, so fuck off.
Removed by mod
Germany rape rate per 100k is higher than South Korea. Are you asking for a cwtch all magical solution from the start? I’m not a god.
(Me literally making sure noone would try to go that way)
Same to you too I guess (apparently mod is biased that I am not allowed to use the same words as you).
And I do find it abhorring that you’re going for bullying and airing your anger instead of trying to even discuss how bring the solutiin into existence
Fuck off is different than fuck you.
Noted. This is not my first language, that’s all I can say for myself.
You blamed rape on “foreign-born” people, and said it was a “cultural problem”. Considering that you also used the prosecuted rate (which would inherently target minorities by virtue of systemic injustices and bias your results) as opposed to using something that would more accurately show the true population of sexual assaults (such as reported sexual assaults), it kinda tips your hand that you’re dogwhistling white supremacy talking points.
Also, I point out South Korea because your solution sucks. A better solution is to not protect sexual assaulters. Fun fact, most sexual assaults aren’t prosecuted, and even more aren’t reported, and you know who gets shit on for that? Women! I hear from men, more often than I should, that women should report their assaults, and in the same breath, talk about how they have to prove they were assaulted. And if you think about that, like really think about it, having to find the proof you were assaulted is fucking insane. The police constantly lose rape kits or don’t even fucking do them. Accusers are harassed nonstop. People speculate about what the woman did to get herself into that situation, but never the fucking man. No, a false accusation could ruin his fucking life, but being sexually assaulted somehow means you have to be the one to prove a crime happened.
Why is it so fucking hard for people to wonder why sexual assault is so underreported?
Please read my post again. I wrote that according to statistics about 40% of rapes are committed in Germany by foreign born people, and that I literally will ignore it for the rest of my post. Like literally literally.
What are you arguing with? Statistics? Me saying I am going to ignore that because it could be tainted, and then quoted psychologists reports that only targeted native Germans, again ignoring foreign born pops to not taint?
After removing the foreign born population from the discussion, I wrote that rape occurrence is directly related to culture of the country/people (meaning, again, ignoring foreign borns part because that could be tainted).
And then you came, swinging some white supremacist shit.
Literally the number I used.
Why? You gave no argument nor reason why it would suck.
Literally what I called culture.
Now you are ascribing USA police culture of rape perpetrator protection to German police. Excuse me, but I know nothing of USA’s. Literally (I keep using this word a lot when replying to your comment, it is frustrating) mentioned that in my first post.