And i fully agree, the world would be better off without all the religious doctrines. Not just the abrahamic ones.
What i disagree with is that having any form private religious contemplations means you are immediately part of a death cult and a horrible person.
Same like not being a vegetarian doesn’t mean you hate all animals.
Getting fulfilment from your job doesn’t mean you agree with capitalism.
Life has nuance, so do personal experiences. Not all forms of religions even require you to have literal believes.But some people want to act like their is no alternative then religious zealot and
Anti-religious zealot.
There is a huge moment of post religion out there that is helping humans get out of superstition. Atheism is one form of that, but not the only one. Grouping them all together as just as bad as the religious abusers is simply not right.
No doubt painting it all with one brush is reductionist, there are good people in all corners of the world. What I would say is, even the genuinely good actors practicing these faiths are all acting as cover for the monsters, whether they want to or not. The most devout people should rather denounce their faith as to not enable the evil that gets perpetrated in their name.
Of course that won’t happen, but I don’t know how else we can reconcile with the idea that these faiths are far, far, far, more destructive than productive, just accounting for the few vile wolves in sheep’s clothing that are actively working towards the destruction of this planet despite the rest of us.
Why would someone who already denounces the church and the evils of institutional religion. But happens to have private contemplations of a spiritual nature, Denounce that personal experience also? Especially if it is their private experience that makes them understand how evil the church is?
(This does not describe me but does describe multiple people who consider themselves religious that i know)
Why would someone who already denounces the church and the evils of institutional religion. But happens to have private contemplations of a spiritual nature, Denounce that personal experience also?
Because it’s more honest, and the closer we get to the truth, the more lives we can save.
Nothing is “spiritual”. Reframe the experience in reality. I promise you can keep all the benefits, just get rid of the needless risk.
So long as your flaws are your problems, you choose to live worse for some reason. But it is not just religion, but any kind of magical thinking. Like when someone refuses psych medicine because they believe they are special, and can overpower the disease with willpower.
You put people at risk willingly by making irrational choices, just because they are convenient.
Having said that, I have little issue with Cristian atheism, as it’s not an actual religion, but an ideology.
For the majority of people that identify as religious, it is just a philosophy/ideology.
That why i take a stand when people shout that “everyone who identifies as religious is part of a death cult”
I am fortunate not to live in an area where zealots are a majority. I only know a single person who actually believes in anything magical (angels) and she does not think that they can intervent in everyday life.
I do know plenty of people who still identify as religious. My Christian teacher who explained me that the bible is just some old book not to take literal.
Even the priests who baptised my son (atheist parents baptising their kids is very common where i live) does not personify god as a separate Devine entity and the one time i heard him preach it was more pro socialism and warning for social isolation by new technology then anything magical.
That is concerning, given that the actual religious folk’s religion is based on an anectodal book, that means they can twist it to whatever suits them.
Like the prospherity gosspel. It is so easy to influence people.
I mean, that’s what MAGA is doing, treating their own religion book as “communist propaganda”.
There are similar branches in other religions, some have even be older then Roman Catholicism itself.
When statistically more than half of people who identify as Christian proclaim that experience is entirely personal. I am inclined to belief they are a part of this. All the religious people i know treat the bible just like any other historical book on traditional philosophy. They don’t go to church (outside special occasions), they aren’t followers of anyone but themselves. They are still considered Christians by themselves and those around them.
The pure definition of “Christianity” in a modern context seems to be nothing more then “having doubts that death will be the end of your conscious experience + some abstract feeling of the universe being an everlasting singularity”
Whether people do good or bad, is entirely up to the people.
To compare with communism. I very much oppose the ussr and ccpr, but that doesn’t mean das kapital by marx is a source of evil.
What the bible says doesn’t matter to religious people who don’t follow that bible.
I think it’s because of your protestant cult upbringing, where the pastor’s bible was absolute truth. That’s a particularly conservative strand, one that denies the Vatican any interpretive authority. Its official role is to interpret a closed revelation, one that supposedly ended when the last apostle died, not to speak as God. Not a defence, just factual information.
I’ve told you before that I’ve read about 3 different bibles. Both the catholic school I went to and my atheist parents considered all of them bibles. But to the extremists you’re talking about, all 3 would be condemned as heretical socialist texts that aren’t the bible at all.
A minority doesn’t get to describe a majority. If we allow that, we lose what we stand for, because people who are malicious will always twist it to evil.
On your nazi argument, compare it with communism. The USSR and the CCP both claim to be socialist and both murder any countering voices. The truth is they aren’t communist, because they have a political class separate from the people.
Fascists have always done this. Embrace, extend, extinguish. With Christianity it started with the Romans, who took three centuries of history that had held no centralised or institutional power and narrowed it down. what was left was the version where the afterlife is a threat you hold over people. This is what most resembles “a death cult”, an institutional invention and not the original philosophy.
It’s one of the reasons I got interested in the non-roman branches that warned against scripture, though those have been coopted by evil figures plenty of times too.
The roman cult, and especially the protestant branches, have done an insane amount of harm to people over the years. Yet the original philosophies survived all of it, and in a modern context, mostly in Europe, they’ve turned into the non theological and personal forms of Christianity that exist today.
It’s still called Christianity because the original stories use Jesus as the character who is the example of good. A bit like a mask in Greek theatre that tells you what the character stands for.
A lot of the good ideas are still there, not just in bible interpretations but in how people actually experience morality. Helping those in need, showing compassion without judgement, finding some personal peace in a chaotic world. None of that needs an afterlife to work, which is sort of the point.
I prefer “spiritual” myself, but I can’t fault people who are surrounded by likeminded rational people who all call themselves Christians for labelling the extremist an outsider and the church old fashioned.
What really made the difference is that people can now compare translations and read the different materials themselves instead of getting one interpretation from one source.
You stil have not given me any evidence except 2 articles that you responded to a different person that both mention how the official committee of US bishops are condemning ice.
Don’t forget that its not the church or institutional religions i am defending but “quit person with personal spiritual contemplations in their private home” which may disagree with the church, not believe in any god, but is still the majority of people who considers themselves religious.
Evidence that speaks about institutional religions i will simply agree with and does not change the careful nuance of my point. Because there is nothing good there to defend.
According to research for Christians specifically. 56% feel their beliefs are entirely private. We can’t know if they believe in any bible or how they interpret it. We don’t know anything about those people except that they identify under a specific label.
I am willing to read proof that these people are the same evil as the institutions are but if that proof exists i think the bigger problem would be the apparent surveillance and thought police of peoples private mind that is required for that proof.
quit person with personal spiritual contemplations in their private home
I assume you mean “quiet” person.
But here’s the thing: religion affects beliefs. Beliefs drive our actions. Whether or not that shit comes out verbally, it still affects us all.
But I would not be responding if there was no offense in the first place. Too many times, it does not stay quiet. It comes out loud and aggressive.
I am willing to read proof that these people are the same evil as the institutions are but if that proof exists i think the bigger problem would be the apparent surveillance and thought police of peoples private mind that is required for that proof.
No, we only need to read the bible they get their beliefs from. It’s an abuser’s handbook. Psychotic. Deadly. Baseless.
PLEASE stop defending death cults.
If they kept it to themselves and never expressed it in any way, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. But they don’t, and the bible explicitly tells them to spread the cancer.
If they kept it to themselves and never expressed it in any way, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
The people i defend. Which is a majority do keep it for themselves and don’t express it in any way because its personal and wouldn’t apply to anyone else.
the bible explicitly tells them to spread the cancer.
Which is why the people i defend condemn the bible for being human manipulative nonsense.
Including my very much believer in magical angels mother in law who is also most afraid of death (you keep saying she is in a death cult that glorifies death)
I was abused because you won’t take a stand
I have no part in this. Institutional abuse by the church was a systemic evil long before i was born and i am not a defender of it or the church. I am only a defender of the majority of personal religious experiences that do not get expressed outside of intimately personal philosophical context.
I don’t really know, she has never talked about it. i only know because my partner that the concept of death is the most scary thing to her. Not just herself but anyone she loves dying.
I believe she is agnostic to heaven or the idea of humans going there. I don’t even know if she believes in god, but definitely angels (which is according to my partner who she preys towards)
I think there is a Maria statue somewhere on the upper floor, i am not sure where that ties in.
I think the preyer is more of a contemplation, by asking the angels the right questions you get insight into your own thoughts. I compare it to meditation.
I personally meditate when i am overwhelmed, it’s very beneficial. Though it’s hard to turn into a regular habit.
Meditation is swell. The danger is magical thinking. If she prays as sincerely as possible for things to get better, but they get worse, what does she think? That she has done something wrong?
Belief in angels is delusional. She thinks magical beings influence reality instead of taking the time to understand physical cause and effect.
I don’t think she believes the angels influence the earth. As far as i understand from my partner, she considers the evils of the current age to be very much man made and not something angels can influence. She very much understands cause and effect.
But preying to them does indicate an expectation they can guide one personaly, so I would call that influence again.
But like i said she is the only Christian i know to actually believe in something that literally magical, which we both know is a bunch of nonsense so i am not surprise the logic makes no sense.
Incredibly sweet and open minded woman though, i don’t think she is even capable of hate.
“I’m against everything nazis stand for, but I still call myself a nazi.”
How do you not see the problem with that? They are not innocent. There is no such thing as christ. There are no true christians. No one should pretend otherwise. They are not good people, they are lethal liars.
You really talk a lot like a dangerous religious cultist.
Nah man, the planet would be really better off without the Abrahamic religions, if you don’t think so, you’re not paying attention
And i fully agree, the world would be better off without all the religious doctrines. Not just the abrahamic ones.
What i disagree with is that having any form private religious contemplations means you are immediately part of a death cult and a horrible person.
Same like not being a vegetarian doesn’t mean you hate all animals.
Getting fulfilment from your job doesn’t mean you agree with capitalism.
Life has nuance, so do personal experiences. Not all forms of religions even require you to have literal believes.But some people want to act like their is no alternative then religious zealot and Anti-religious zealot.
There is a huge moment of post religion out there that is helping humans get out of superstition. Atheism is one form of that, but not the only one. Grouping them all together as just as bad as the religious abusers is simply not right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
No doubt painting it all with one brush is reductionist, there are good people in all corners of the world. What I would say is, even the genuinely good actors practicing these faiths are all acting as cover for the monsters, whether they want to or not. The most devout people should rather denounce their faith as to not enable the evil that gets perpetrated in their name.
Of course that won’t happen, but I don’t know how else we can reconcile with the idea that these faiths are far, far, far, more destructive than productive, just accounting for the few vile wolves in sheep’s clothing that are actively working towards the destruction of this planet despite the rest of us.
Why would someone who already denounces the church and the evils of institutional religion. But happens to have private contemplations of a spiritual nature, Denounce that personal experience also? Especially if it is their private experience that makes them understand how evil the church is?
(This does not describe me but does describe multiple people who consider themselves religious that i know)
Because it’s more honest, and the closer we get to the truth, the more lives we can save.
Nothing is “spiritual”. Reframe the experience in reality. I promise you can keep all the benefits, just get rid of the needless risk.
I think that may be the catch 22 that leaves us where we are, unfortunately
So long as your flaws are your problems, you choose to live worse for some reason. But it is not just religion, but any kind of magical thinking. Like when someone refuses psych medicine because they believe they are special, and can overpower the disease with willpower.
You put people at risk willingly by making irrational choices, just because they are convenient.
Having said that, I have little issue with Cristian atheism, as it’s not an actual religion, but an ideology.
For the majority of people that identify as religious, it is just a philosophy/ideology.
That why i take a stand when people shout that “everyone who identifies as religious is part of a death cult”
I am fortunate not to live in an area where zealots are a majority. I only know a single person who actually believes in anything magical (angels) and she does not think that they can intervent in everyday life.
I do know plenty of people who still identify as religious. My Christian teacher who explained me that the bible is just some old book not to take literal.
Even the priests who baptised my son (atheist parents baptising their kids is very common where i live) does not personify god as a separate Devine entity and the one time i heard him preach it was more pro socialism and warning for social isolation by new technology then anything magical.
That is concerning, given that the actual religious folk’s religion is based on an anectodal book, that means they can twist it to whatever suits them.
Like the prospherity gosspel. It is so easy to influence people.
I mean, that’s what MAGA is doing, treating their own religion book as “communist propaganda”.
I think it’s part of post-theism actually. It’s nothing to be concerned about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-theism
Its includes things like atheism. Christian atheism and cultural Christians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Christians
There are similar branches in other religions, some have even be older then Roman Catholicism itself.
When statistically more than half of people who identify as Christian proclaim that experience is entirely personal. I am inclined to belief they are a part of this. All the religious people i know treat the bible just like any other historical book on traditional philosophy. They don’t go to church (outside special occasions), they aren’t followers of anyone but themselves. They are still considered Christians by themselves and those around them.
The pure definition of “Christianity” in a modern context seems to be nothing more then “having doubts that death will be the end of your conscious experience + some abstract feeling of the universe being an everlasting singularity”
Whether people do good or bad, is entirely up to the people.
To compare with communism. I very much oppose the ussr and ccpr, but that doesn’t mean das kapital by marx is a source of evil.
It’s literally what the bible says, and believers are killing people every day because THAT’S WHAT THE RELIGION IS ABOUT.
What the bible says doesn’t matter to religious people who don’t follow that bible.
I think it’s because of your protestant cult upbringing, where the pastor’s bible was absolute truth. That’s a particularly conservative strand, one that denies the Vatican any interpretive authority. Its official role is to interpret a closed revelation, one that supposedly ended when the last apostle died, not to speak as God. Not a defence, just factual information.
I’ve told you before that I’ve read about 3 different bibles. Both the catholic school I went to and my atheist parents considered all of them bibles. But to the extremists you’re talking about, all 3 would be condemned as heretical socialist texts that aren’t the bible at all.
A minority doesn’t get to describe a majority. If we allow that, we lose what we stand for, because people who are malicious will always twist it to evil.
On your nazi argument, compare it with communism. The USSR and the CCP both claim to be socialist and both murder any countering voices. The truth is they aren’t communist, because they have a political class separate from the people.
Fascists have always done this. Embrace, extend, extinguish. With Christianity it started with the Romans, who took three centuries of history that had held no centralised or institutional power and narrowed it down. what was left was the version where the afterlife is a threat you hold over people. This is what most resembles “a death cult”, an institutional invention and not the original philosophy. It’s one of the reasons I got interested in the non-roman branches that warned against scripture, though those have been coopted by evil figures plenty of times too.
The roman cult, and especially the protestant branches, have done an insane amount of harm to people over the years. Yet the original philosophies survived all of it, and in a modern context, mostly in Europe, they’ve turned into the non theological and personal forms of Christianity that exist today.
It’s still called Christianity because the original stories use Jesus as the character who is the example of good. A bit like a mask in Greek theatre that tells you what the character stands for.
A lot of the good ideas are still there, not just in bible interpretations but in how people actually experience morality. Helping those in need, showing compassion without judgement, finding some personal peace in a chaotic world. None of that needs an afterlife to work, which is sort of the point.
I prefer “spiritual” myself, but I can’t fault people who are surrounded by likeminded rational people who all call themselves Christians for labelling the extremist an outsider and the church old fashioned.
What really made the difference is that people can now compare translations and read the different materials themselves instead of getting one interpretation from one source.
Oops, you forgot the crucial difference again: Evidence.
You stil have not given me any evidence except 2 articles that you responded to a different person that both mention how the official committee of US bishops are condemning ice.
Don’t forget that its not the church or institutional religions i am defending but “quit person with personal spiritual contemplations in their private home” which may disagree with the church, not believe in any god, but is still the majority of people who considers themselves religious.
Evidence that speaks about institutional religions i will simply agree with and does not change the careful nuance of my point. Because there is nothing good there to defend.
According to research for Christians specifically. 56% feel their beliefs are entirely private. We can’t know if they believe in any bible or how they interpret it. We don’t know anything about those people except that they identify under a specific label.
I am willing to read proof that these people are the same evil as the institutions are but if that proof exists i think the bigger problem would be the apparent surveillance and thought police of peoples private mind that is required for that proof.
I assume you mean “quiet” person.
But here’s the thing: religion affects beliefs. Beliefs drive our actions. Whether or not that shit comes out verbally, it still affects us all.
But I would not be responding if there was no offense in the first place. Too many times, it does not stay quiet. It comes out loud and aggressive.
No, we only need to read the bible they get their beliefs from. It’s an abuser’s handbook. Psychotic. Deadly. Baseless.
PLEASE stop defending death cults.
If they kept it to themselves and never expressed it in any way, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. But they don’t, and the bible explicitly tells them to spread the cancer.
I was abused because you won’t take a stand.
The people i defend. Which is a majority do keep it for themselves and don’t express it in any way because its personal and wouldn’t apply to anyone else.
Which is why the people i defend condemn the bible for being human manipulative nonsense.
Including my very much believer in magical angels mother in law who is also most afraid of death (you keep saying she is in a death cult that glorifies death)
Why is she afraid of death? She doesn’t believe in heaven?
Does she pray compulsively for salvation? That’s also not good.
I don’t really know, she has never talked about it. i only know because my partner that the concept of death is the most scary thing to her. Not just herself but anyone she loves dying.
I believe she is agnostic to heaven or the idea of humans going there. I don’t even know if she believes in god, but definitely angels (which is according to my partner who she preys towards)
I think there is a Maria statue somewhere on the upper floor, i am not sure where that ties in.
I think the preyer is more of a contemplation, by asking the angels the right questions you get insight into your own thoughts. I compare it to meditation.
I personally meditate when i am overwhelmed, it’s very beneficial. Though it’s hard to turn into a regular habit.
Meditation is swell. The danger is magical thinking. If she prays as sincerely as possible for things to get better, but they get worse, what does she think? That she has done something wrong?
Belief in angels is delusional. She thinks magical beings influence reality instead of taking the time to understand physical cause and effect.
I don’t know. She really never talks about it.
I don’t think she believes the angels influence the earth. As far as i understand from my partner, she considers the evils of the current age to be very much man made and not something angels can influence. She very much understands cause and effect.
But preying to them does indicate an expectation they can guide one personaly, so I would call that influence again.
But like i said she is the only Christian i know to actually believe in something that literally magical, which we both know is a bunch of nonsense so i am not surprise the logic makes no sense.
Incredibly sweet and open minded woman though, i don’t think she is even capable of hate.
The people i defend criticise and condemn the church and the biblical god. They are still considered christians.
They are not part of a death-cult. You have no proof that they are and citing a text they condemn is not going to do so.
My stand is that they can’t be lumped in with the people that are disillusioned.
The extremist that harmed you are not the people i speak of.
Stop attacking innocent people who are fighting the same fight against the same enemies.
“I’m against everything nazis stand for, but I still call myself a nazi.”
How do you not see the problem with that? They are not innocent. There is no such thing as christ. There are no true christians. No one should pretend otherwise. They are not good people, they are lethal liars.