Hey! I just responded to another comment that qarbone made and I think it adequately covers a lot of this stuff too.
I’m very much not trying to say it’s always intended to be objectifying, but that it feels objectifying when somebody leads with that, because people are more than that. And if you are trying to strike up a conversation with a woman, considering how something feels to her, regardless of your intention, is important because it will dictate her response.
To me, a man I’ve never met approaching me saying “I think you are hot” reads to me like “I saw you and I covet you, and I don’t care much about your substance.”
You are allowed to think a woman is hot, but perhaps don’t lead with it because it signals that is the only reason why you are talking to her, regardless of if that is true or not.
Women are often very intentional with their fashion, so a tried and true way of striking up a convo in an unassuming way is to comment/compliment on a choice they made
Example: “I really like your shirt/bag/shoes/jacket, etc., it looks really cool!/goes really well with your outfit!” (Make note of the adjectives. Do not call a stranger hot/sexy/etc. In the first sentence - that puts unneeded pressure on the interaction because we do not know what kind of guy you are - keep the compliment neutral, like how you’d compliment a guy)
It’s important to note that your intentions do not matter if they do not match your perceived intentions.
I’m not trying to be a shithead, but that almost sounds like you have a subconscious notion that you are an object. Patriarchy and such beating it into your head or whatever, but if you interpret so many things as saying that you are an object, it doesn’t seem like it’s based in reality.
Maybe put another way, the man would almost certainly, in his own head, truly not believe that is what he is conveying, and is not trying to imply that. By reading that into it, you are the one adding that context to the situation.
In some cases, at least. Certainly, many men are shit and do intentionally do that.
The patriarchy is the framework that allows and reinforces the idea that women are commodities, that we are objects for men to own, but it’s all in our heads and we are arbitrarily choosing to interpret men’s harassment as objectification?
Did I get that right?
Approaching a woman with “I think you’re hot” isn’t really up for debate whether it’s objectifying. Even if the man using that phrase doesn’t think he’s objectifying the woman he is trying to court, commenting specifically on her appearance in relation to what he wants is pretty clear.
Edit: it’s like you didn’t even read their last sentence-
It’s important to note that your intentions do not matter if they do not match your perceived intentions.
So if I perceive that every human that gets within 2 ft of me is attempting to murder me, it’s their fault?
How is “I think you are hot” objectifying when “hot” is a descriptor of a human beings qualities? You got call a house hot. Or a train. I suppose there is hot rod but I am pretty sure that came from a different definition of hot and not attraction.
I just don’t understand how you could perceive it as objectifying by default.
I’m going to respectfully stop this conversation here. Not because I can’t explain how men can objectify women and why women can pick up on when men want to fuck us vs befriending us, but because it won’t be productive and this isn’t the community to do so.
because hot means “youre really attractive when I look at you” here. You dont know what they like, they dont know their hobbys, their style of humor, only what they look like. That is the difference.
If you said, “you know I find you to be really hot when your wit is so quick” its different.
Ive told my husband, “Youre so hot when youre getting excited over basketball cards” cuz, he is, im not objectifying him. His personality is what makes him hot, not his giant cock.
Also, telling someone youve known as a person for a time, like talked to them before, know them already a bit, hot is less off putting and random, than a person you just met. A person you just met the only thing you can call them hot for is how they look. Thats objectifying.
To me, a man I’ve never met approaching me saying “I think you are hot” reads to me like “I saw you and I covet you, and I don’t care much about your substance.”
This is it exactly. A man I’ve never met saying that is way different than someone you know saying it. Like, I replied to one of Velma’s comments that an outfit she described looked hot, but I’ve also interacted with her multiple times and I’m not some strange dude walking up out of the blue to say that.
Absolutely! Your existing rapport with a person really informs what is acceptable socially going forward. My friends and I are extremely flirty with each other, but that takes into account that we know each other and we know what is acceptable and we know that the other person will inform us if we’ve gone too far.
When you’re a stranger, however, all bets are off as far as what’s acceptable goes, so it’s important to make sure you’re representing your intentions honestly, accounting for the other person’s perspective as well.
I’ll also add that context matters too. How you hit on someone at a music festival is vitally different from how you hit on them at a community potluck. I’ve had success flirting with a woman I hadn’t met before by complimenting how her boobs looked in the corset she was wearing, but had I not been in an event where sexual forwardness, including between women, is normal. To make a comment like that basically anywhere else would be mortifying.
Generally try to err on the side of respectful, but learning what are normal and acceptable styles of flirtation and general interaction in a space is part of hitting on people in that space.
You make a super good point and I don’t know why I didn’t think of that in my initial comment!
Context in setting is soooo important. When I was typing out my intial comment I totally just had a vision in my head of being out in the general public, at a bar, grocery store, bus stop, mall, etc. I didn’t even think about music festivals!
That being said, there seems to be a pretty good general consensus about, well, consent and the understanding thereof, at least at the festivals I attend regularly.
But no you are totally correct in that there is a time and place for that kind of assumed rapport (if that wording makes sense) based on the specific community’s unwritten social rules. I’ve even directly experienced this so I don’t know how I glossed over it, so thank you for making that point!
You had a great comment though! I’d been thinking about setting throughout the thread and you just had the comment that was sufficiently thorough for me to feel my comment was the proper response.
And I think everyone in the thread was thinking of this sort of thing happening in the general public or the sort of space where normal social rules apply because that’s most places and where most people do most of their hitting on people and getting hit on. I personally don’t really flirt in such spaces being a polyamorous lesbian.
But also the more I think about it the more I think that some alternative rules spaces are somewhat common at least to have experienced. The big parties that college age people tend to enjoy, certain bars and clubs, festivals… Each of these places have their own rules, and as you say some are increasingly emphasizing consent (good), but often the move isn’t to getting to know each other first, but to “flirt a bit and ask before you start touching.” And in such spaces my biggest advice for people is to watch the mouth and eyes to see if they’re checking you out and if they’re enjoying your chatting them up.
My story took place at a bar night for the leather community, which is probably only second to swingers events in expected forwardness, and it’s the sort of place most people won’t even want to go. But it’s a great example of how much the rules can differ.
Hey! I just responded to another comment that qarbone made and I think it adequately covers a lot of this stuff too.
I’m very much not trying to say it’s always intended to be objectifying, but that it feels objectifying when somebody leads with that, because people are more than that. And if you are trying to strike up a conversation with a woman, considering how something feels to her, regardless of your intention, is important because it will dictate her response.
To me, a man I’ve never met approaching me saying “I think you are hot” reads to me like “I saw you and I covet you, and I don’t care much about your substance.”
You are allowed to think a woman is hot, but perhaps don’t lead with it because it signals that is the only reason why you are talking to her, regardless of if that is true or not.
Women are often very intentional with their fashion, so a tried and true way of striking up a convo in an unassuming way is to comment/compliment on a choice they made
Example: “I really like your shirt/bag/shoes/jacket, etc., it looks really cool!/goes really well with your outfit!” (Make note of the adjectives. Do not call a stranger hot/sexy/etc. In the first sentence - that puts unneeded pressure on the interaction because we do not know what kind of guy you are - keep the compliment neutral, like how you’d compliment a guy)
It’s important to note that your intentions do not matter if they do not match your perceived intentions.
I’m not trying to be a shithead, but that almost sounds like you have a subconscious notion that you are an object. Patriarchy and such beating it into your head or whatever, but if you interpret so many things as saying that you are an object, it doesn’t seem like it’s based in reality.
Maybe put another way, the man would almost certainly, in his own head, truly not believe that is what he is conveying, and is not trying to imply that. By reading that into it, you are the one adding that context to the situation.
In some cases, at least. Certainly, many men are shit and do intentionally do that.
The patriarchy is the framework that allows and reinforces the idea that women are commodities, that we are objects for men to own, but it’s all in our heads and we are arbitrarily choosing to interpret men’s harassment as objectification?
Did I get that right?
Approaching a woman with “I think you’re hot” isn’t really up for debate whether it’s objectifying. Even if the man using that phrase doesn’t think he’s objectifying the woman he is trying to court, commenting specifically on her appearance in relation to what he wants is pretty clear.
Edit: it’s like you didn’t even read their last sentence-
just popping in to say youre amazing :)
Aw thank you! So are you :3
Right? I love Velma, she helps bring out the whiners so I can tag them to ignore later :)
So many “misandry whiner” tags in this thread lol
So if I perceive that every human that gets within 2 ft of me is attempting to murder me, it’s their fault?
How is “I think you are hot” objectifying when “hot” is a descriptor of a human beings qualities? You got call a house hot. Or a train. I suppose there is hot rod but I am pretty sure that came from a different definition of hot and not attraction.
I just don’t understand how you could perceive it as objectifying by default.
I’m going to respectfully stop this conversation here. Not because I can’t explain how men can objectify women and why women can pick up on when men want to fuck us vs befriending us, but because it won’t be productive and this isn’t the community to do so.
Please read the rules and respect this space.
I’d like you to take a look at rule #1 of this group and ask yourself: “Am I supposed to be commenting here?”
I’m not making the accusation. Yet. But I’m asking the question.
because hot means “youre really attractive when I look at you” here. You dont know what they like, they dont know their hobbys, their style of humor, only what they look like. That is the difference.
If you said, “you know I find you to be really hot when your wit is so quick” its different.
Ive told my husband, “Youre so hot when youre getting excited over basketball cards” cuz, he is, im not objectifying him. His personality is what makes him hot, not his giant cock.
Also, telling someone youve known as a person for a time, like talked to them before, know them already a bit, hot is less off putting and random, than a person you just met. A person you just met the only thing you can call them hot for is how they look. Thats objectifying.
This is it exactly. A man I’ve never met saying that is way different than someone you know saying it. Like, I replied to one of Velma’s comments that an outfit she described looked hot, but I’ve also interacted with her multiple times and I’m not some strange dude walking up out of the blue to say that.
Absolutely! Your existing rapport with a person really informs what is acceptable socially going forward. My friends and I are extremely flirty with each other, but that takes into account that we know each other and we know what is acceptable and we know that the other person will inform us if we’ve gone too far.
When you’re a stranger, however, all bets are off as far as what’s acceptable goes, so it’s important to make sure you’re representing your intentions honestly, accounting for the other person’s perspective as well.
I’ll also add that context matters too. How you hit on someone at a music festival is vitally different from how you hit on them at a community potluck. I’ve had success flirting with a woman I hadn’t met before by complimenting how her boobs looked in the corset she was wearing, but had I not been in an event where sexual forwardness, including between women, is normal. To make a comment like that basically anywhere else would be mortifying.
Generally try to err on the side of respectful, but learning what are normal and acceptable styles of flirtation and general interaction in a space is part of hitting on people in that space.
You make a super good point and I don’t know why I didn’t think of that in my initial comment!
Context in setting is soooo important. When I was typing out my intial comment I totally just had a vision in my head of being out in the general public, at a bar, grocery store, bus stop, mall, etc. I didn’t even think about music festivals!
That being said, there seems to be a pretty good general consensus about, well, consent and the understanding thereof, at least at the festivals I attend regularly.
But no you are totally correct in that there is a time and place for that kind of assumed rapport (if that wording makes sense) based on the specific community’s unwritten social rules. I’ve even directly experienced this so I don’t know how I glossed over it, so thank you for making that point!
You had a great comment though! I’d been thinking about setting throughout the thread and you just had the comment that was sufficiently thorough for me to feel my comment was the proper response.
And I think everyone in the thread was thinking of this sort of thing happening in the general public or the sort of space where normal social rules apply because that’s most places and where most people do most of their hitting on people and getting hit on. I personally don’t really flirt in such spaces being a polyamorous lesbian.
But also the more I think about it the more I think that some alternative rules spaces are somewhat common at least to have experienced. The big parties that college age people tend to enjoy, certain bars and clubs, festivals… Each of these places have their own rules, and as you say some are increasingly emphasizing consent (good), but often the move isn’t to getting to know each other first, but to “flirt a bit and ask before you start touching.” And in such spaces my biggest advice for people is to watch the mouth and eyes to see if they’re checking you out and if they’re enjoying your chatting them up.
My story took place at a bar night for the leather community, which is probably only second to swingers events in expected forwardness, and it’s the sort of place most people won’t even want to go. But it’s a great example of how much the rules can differ.