Fine, I tried to speed things up a bit because I have a deluge of notifications over this, but let’s go back to it.
Poor baby.
Yeah, as you present it, it doesn’t sound like it makes any sense. In the greater context of the US political environment, though, I think it makes sense.
So yet again you are going to avoid critically analyzing your logic and just repeat your vague handwaving stories than deal with the contradiction. You can’t acknowledge the fundamental self-defeat aspect, you have to avoid discussing it. See, this is dishonest behavior.
What happens every time Democrats lose to Republicans? Democrats use it as an excuse to court centrists and move to the right.
They also say that when they win. Time to reach across the aisle and get things done, right? You need to expand your thinking to actually consider the alternative because your post hoc ergo propter hoc is cherry picked. The reality is that Democrats always want to favor their bourgeois machinery, their donor networks, their media access and relations, their think tank and NGO graft network, and the personal professional mobility built into that system (party climbers). And this applies a filter for who has power and what they do with it.
What happened in Nevada when DSA DemSoca electorally gained nominal control of the party? Do you know?
So if every loss pushes Democrats to the right, not the left, how exactly do you expect to push them left by costing them elections?
You’re again confusing me for someone who thinks electoralism and “pushing Democrats left” is viable. I am simply pointing out that your rhetoric is self-defeating and illogical and that if you did want to push Democrats left you wouldn’t subscribe to the theory of throwing away all leverage by promising to vote for them no matter what. You have clearly never tried to make anything happen electorally nor analyzed your inevitable policy failures.
I’ll remind you that your logic is to have literally no situation in which you don’t provide a Democrat support, at least so long as you don’t believe anything is worse than genocide. And somehow, through the magic of storytelling, this becomes a political strategy for you and “the left” because the demons that fight you every step of the way will become less focused on opposing you when their alleged right wing opposition needs less attention. Because again you cannot spell out what happens next and how.
In what way does that not make sense? What is the real conclusion? Where did ideas of electoral defeatism originate, and what purpose do they serve?
You still haven’t answered those questions by the way. And they don’t actually apply to me. Just be honest and stop deflecting.
Let’s look at this the other way around. Democrats lost, and it was very likely expressly because of Gaza.
It is marginally because of Democrats doing genocide. That tipped the scales to a degree that you can attribute the loss to it in a “if they had those voters they’d probably have won”. But Democrats lose for a much larger host of reasons that accumulate socially over time and breadth of political life. The pro-Palestine voting bloc is nascent, it’s barely organized, it’s not very disciplined, it’s full of fools who think they can “change the system from within” because they either do not understand it or stand to fund their nonprofits through proximity to the party. So it’s marginal.
It is, however, useful to understand that Democrats preferred to be genocidal than win the election. And that’s who you say to vote for no matter what. Then you get prickly when it’s pointed out that this makes you an advocate for genocidaires.
They wrote up an election autopsy on why they lost. They then released that report, admitted they were wrong, and pivoted to supporting Gaza, right? Right?
See you belabor this straw man re: withholding votes because you don’t know how to seek knowledge or understanding. You falsely presume I have your same misunderstandings of the party and electoralism. You’re projecting that into me and really just arguing with a less politically incompetent version of your own politics, not mine. But this doesn’t elevate your even less competent logic to be better than the alternative I’ve dangled in front of you.
Yeah, about that, didn’t happen. We just continued it while also starting shit in a bunch of other countries.
It’s almost as if there’s a strong political continuity regardless of whether it’s a D or R in power. Do you wonder why that is?
Or maybe it’s because things got worse when we elected Trump, with invasions of Iran, Venezuela, potentially Cuba, and giving Israel a chance to go at Lebanon.
You’re just deflecting again. No, that is not why you are opposed here, which is what you are supposedly responding to with this retort. You don’t even make sense. You just avoid. Go back and actually engage.
There’s not much to say here other than I disagree, but I’ll include it to avoid being accused to ignoring anything again.
There’s plenty you could say. You could, if you don’t understand how this could be the case, ask why I perceive that. You could explain your disagreement, though you’d probably have to ask questions first. But you’d rather avoid understanding.
Who do you mean when you say “actual advocates”, and what strategies are they recommending? This is too vague for me to really address, but it sounds potentially useful to know.
Those who organize for the liberation of Palestine from imperialist settler colonialism occupation and genocide. There are many organizations that do this. It’s not really vague, you are just unfamiliar with this topic. You confuse your ignorance for a communication problem.
Well hey, that leverage got used anyway, so let’s look at the results: tried to withhold the autopsy report,
See you don’t even read responses before replying so you belabor useless talking points I’ve already addressed. When will you start reading and stop talking so much? Organize yourself.
to pivot at all. But at least we got involved in Iran, Venezuela, potentially Cuba, and helped Israel get into Lebanon. Is that the success you hoped for? Because it kinda sounds like you won nothing and helped make things worse.
So the Democratic Party would rather lose the election than stop supporting genocide. What does that tell you about how well your strategy of actively throwing away leverage and then doing nothing will work? At no point has this made you think, “gee, these people are in power in the party and so opposed to this they’d rather lose the election. Maybe I need to think about what keeps them, nevertheless, in power in the party”?
Get the fuck over yourself.
Nothing in what I said is egotistical or self-promoting, it was simply critical of your empty proclamations of caring about brown people while advocating for their genociders. And clearly it struck a nerve.
I’m not okay with any of it.
You are an open advocate for the people genociding brown people. You’re proud of it. You think it’s smart and condescend towards others about it.
Thinking that things would be better under Democrats isn’t a glowing endorsement of them.
I already told you exactly what it is and “glowing endorsement” isn’t anywhere to be found. See how you have to invent criticisms that are easier to respond to than what was actually said? You aren’t coping with the reality.
Like I’ve already said here, Democrats move right when Republicans win elections. We should not just vote them in and hope all is well.
And yet, again, your only conception of left electoral power is to vote for Democrats and then everything else kind of just happens with hand-wavy “force” and “demands” with no mechanism. Your logic is to throw away leverage and only then will things happen, somehow. You’re very light on the details of the other steps because you haven’t thought about them. I know this. You know this. This is because you are parroting the logic of the genocidaires’ party, cynical logic to disenfranchise their voters and keep the money train a-rollin’, and they don’t want you to really think about how the rest of the steps would work so they don’t spell it out for you.
We should choose who we think is more susceptible to being pressured, and then heap as much pressure on them as possible through whatever means you think will be most effective.
“Force”. “Pressure”.
With what? You still can’t even think of what you’d actually do once you have promised to always vote for them.
Sure, totally that and not the fact that we knew things would get even worse under Trump, like with the multiple invasions and abduction I’ve already mentioned.
Yes that is part of the early genocide apologia. An immediate pivot to lesser evil rhetoric even in the face of your politicians doing genocide. I recognize your rhetoric because I’ve seen it scores of times for 2-3 years. There is nothing to doubt about this.
I could have phrased that better, so I’m sorry for the impression it gave. I did not mean defeatism on the topic of Palestine. I meant defeatism on the topic of elections.
I am actually pointing you towards less incompetent electoral strategy so you can eventually learn its many failure modes and why, and more proximally, stop saying ridiculous bullshit we’ve all heard a thousand times.
You’re right that I don’t get to do as much as I’d like on the topic. Unfortunately, life has put significant constraints on my opportunities to stay well informed and participate.
No investigation, no right to speak. Shut up and ask for opinions and advice because you don’t know anything, you just repeat cynical party propaganda.
PS poor sharecroppers informed themselves by candlelight after 14 hour days so cry me a fucking river for trying to excuse your proud genocide apologetic ignorant proclamations. You always have the option of shutting the fuck up.
Poor baby.
So yet again you are going to avoid critically analyzing your logic and just repeat your vague handwaving stories than deal with the contradiction. You can’t acknowledge the fundamental self-defeat aspect, you have to avoid discussing it. See, this is dishonest behavior.
They also say that when they win. Time to reach across the aisle and get things done, right? You need to expand your thinking to actually consider the alternative because your post hoc ergo propter hoc is cherry picked. The reality is that Democrats always want to favor their bourgeois machinery, their donor networks, their media access and relations, their think tank and NGO graft network, and the personal professional mobility built into that system (party climbers). And this applies a filter for who has power and what they do with it.
What happened in Nevada when DSA DemSoca electorally gained nominal control of the party? Do you know?
You’re again confusing me for someone who thinks electoralism and “pushing Democrats left” is viable. I am simply pointing out that your rhetoric is self-defeating and illogical and that if you did want to push Democrats left you wouldn’t subscribe to the theory of throwing away all leverage by promising to vote for them no matter what. You have clearly never tried to make anything happen electorally nor analyzed your inevitable policy failures.
I’ll remind you that your logic is to have literally no situation in which you don’t provide a Democrat support, at least so long as you don’t believe anything is worse than genocide. And somehow, through the magic of storytelling, this becomes a political strategy for you and “the left” because the demons that fight you every step of the way will become less focused on opposing you when their alleged right wing opposition needs less attention. Because again you cannot spell out what happens next and how.
You still haven’t answered those questions by the way. And they don’t actually apply to me. Just be honest and stop deflecting.
It is marginally because of Democrats doing genocide. That tipped the scales to a degree that you can attribute the loss to it in a “if they had those voters they’d probably have won”. But Democrats lose for a much larger host of reasons that accumulate socially over time and breadth of political life. The pro-Palestine voting bloc is nascent, it’s barely organized, it’s not very disciplined, it’s full of fools who think they can “change the system from within” because they either do not understand it or stand to fund their nonprofits through proximity to the party. So it’s marginal.
It is, however, useful to understand that Democrats preferred to be genocidal than win the election. And that’s who you say to vote for no matter what. Then you get prickly when it’s pointed out that this makes you an advocate for genocidaires.
See you belabor this straw man re: withholding votes because you don’t know how to seek knowledge or understanding. You falsely presume I have your same misunderstandings of the party and electoralism. You’re projecting that into me and really just arguing with a less politically incompetent version of your own politics, not mine. But this doesn’t elevate your even less competent logic to be better than the alternative I’ve dangled in front of you.
It’s almost as if there’s a strong political continuity regardless of whether it’s a D or R in power. Do you wonder why that is?
You’re just deflecting again. No, that is not why you are opposed here, which is what you are supposedly responding to with this retort. You don’t even make sense. You just avoid. Go back and actually engage.
There’s plenty you could say. You could, if you don’t understand how this could be the case, ask why I perceive that. You could explain your disagreement, though you’d probably have to ask questions first. But you’d rather avoid understanding.
Those who organize for the liberation of Palestine from imperialist settler colonialism occupation and genocide. There are many organizations that do this. It’s not really vague, you are just unfamiliar with this topic. You confuse your ignorance for a communication problem.
See you don’t even read responses before replying so you belabor useless talking points I’ve already addressed. When will you start reading and stop talking so much? Organize yourself.
So the Democratic Party would rather lose the election than stop supporting genocide. What does that tell you about how well your strategy of actively throwing away leverage and then doing nothing will work? At no point has this made you think, “gee, these people are in power in the party and so opposed to this they’d rather lose the election. Maybe I need to think about what keeps them, nevertheless, in power in the party”?
Nothing in what I said is egotistical or self-promoting, it was simply critical of your empty proclamations of caring about brown people while advocating for their genociders. And clearly it struck a nerve.
You are an open advocate for the people genociding brown people. You’re proud of it. You think it’s smart and condescend towards others about it.
I already told you exactly what it is and “glowing endorsement” isn’t anywhere to be found. See how you have to invent criticisms that are easier to respond to than what was actually said? You aren’t coping with the reality.
And yet, again, your only conception of left electoral power is to vote for Democrats and then everything else kind of just happens with hand-wavy “force” and “demands” with no mechanism. Your logic is to throw away leverage and only then will things happen, somehow. You’re very light on the details of the other steps because you haven’t thought about them. I know this. You know this. This is because you are parroting the logic of the genocidaires’ party, cynical logic to disenfranchise their voters and keep the money train a-rollin’, and they don’t want you to really think about how the rest of the steps would work so they don’t spell it out for you.
“Force”. “Pressure”.
With what? You still can’t even think of what you’d actually do once you have promised to always vote for them.
Yes that is part of the early genocide apologia. An immediate pivot to lesser evil rhetoric even in the face of your politicians doing genocide. I recognize your rhetoric because I’ve seen it scores of times for 2-3 years. There is nothing to doubt about this.
I am actually pointing you towards less incompetent electoral strategy so you can eventually learn its many failure modes and why, and more proximally, stop saying ridiculous bullshit we’ve all heard a thousand times.
No investigation, no right to speak. Shut up and ask for opinions and advice because you don’t know anything, you just repeat cynical party propaganda.
PS poor sharecroppers informed themselves by candlelight after 14 hour days so cry me a fucking river for trying to excuse your proud genocide apologetic ignorant proclamations. You always have the option of shutting the fuck up.
Split comment again.