Yeah, and he 100% should have, but my point is that we would have both more time to break democrat support and better odds compared to the republicans. It’s obviously not ideal, but I think we should nudge the chances in every way we can, not just in the ways that seems most likely to pay off.
How is getting DNC zionist supporting Democrats elected giving YOU more time to “better the odds”? You’re not nudging in the anti-genocide direction; you’re literally giving the genociders two or four more years of breathing room to support Israel
Because while I think the Democrats are incredibly difficult to force to act, I think the Republicans are genuinely impossible. I know Democrat leadership is never going to just do it willingly, but support for Israel is tanking hard on the American left. At bare minimum, things would be constrained to Gaza instead of Gaza plus Iran and Lebanon. And I know that’s not exactly a great solace to those in Gaza still, but if we’re trying to stop a genocide, my idea was essentially to do everything we can to nudge the odds in our favor. We don’t just push for the Democrat. We spend an hour or two voting to gain that tiny fraction of a percent, then go back to whatever you think is the most optimal resistance. No one factor is going to stop the genocide, or it would have already happened, so we’re gonna have to pile on as many points in our favor, as miniscule as they may be, as possible.
Again this ignores the reality that the ceasefire happened under a Republican, that zionist democrats are just as fanatical as their republican peers when it comes to Israel, that getting zionist democrats elected normalizes genocide, makes it conditional, and gives the overall system a permission structure to justify further genocide against other groups, a permission structure that has already been used in less extreme but still horrific circumstances by Democrats against trans and immigrant communities
The problem here is that you think the Democratic Party is in any way, shape, or form open to Palestinian liberation; they are not, they are so fanatical they sacrificed their own chances in a national election and allowed Donald Trump to regain office, the only sane response to this kind of genocidal derangement is a total boycott of any Democrat who exhibits even the smallest degree of support for Israel
Creating an environment where a politician cannot get elected no matter the party thanks to Israel is how you nudge things in the right direction; otherwise you’re just fooling yourself and backing the normalization of genocide
Again this ignores the reality that the ceasefire happened under a Republican, that zionist democrats are just as fanatical as their republican peers when it comes to Israel, that getting zionist democrats elected normalizes genocide, makes it conditional, and gives the overall system a permission structure to justify further genocide against other groups, a permission structure that has already been used in less extreme but still horrific circumstances by Democrats against trans and immigrant communities
First, I think the ceasefire is better ascribed to time and mounting global backlash than it is to Trump. Trump is the same one who proposed the US move all the people out and take control, the one who said we should just finish the job, and the one who just a few months ago, several months after the start of the ceasefire, said Gaza was great real estate and that we should clean it out and build skyscrapers. The only thing I’ve seen that Trump has said or done that suggests he gives the slightest shit about Gaza is that the ceasefire happened under him. So it seems more likely that Israel recognizes the global backlash is a threat to their long term support as protesters age up, vote more often, enter political office, and have meaningful money to allocate in boycotts. Once it became clear it was happening, I’d fully expect Trump to dive on the opportunity to take credit for it to stroke his ego and give him another excuse to whine about the peace prize he didn’t get.
The problem here is that you think the Democratic Party is in any way, shape, or form open to Palestinian liberation; they are not, they are so fanatical they sacrificed their own chances in a national election and allowed Donald Trump to regain office, the only sane response to this kind of genocidal derangement is a total boycott of any Democrat who exhibits even the smallest degree of support for Israel
No, see, I fully agree that the Democratic Party is going to strongly resist all attempts to break support for Israel in Gaza. I just think that breaking them is more likely than breaking Trump, and we won’t get another chance to choose who we’re pressuring for another 4 years.
The problem I see with a total boycott of the Democratic Party is that this guarantees Republicans win, and when Republicans win, Democrats move to the right to chase centrists and fleeing Republicans. Every time. Not once in my lifetime have I seen the Democrats lose and think to themselves “wow, maybe we should court progressives instead of centrists”. Republicans win, so they pick up Republican tendencies to stay competitive.
Compare that to what happened when we voted. Many people understandably took issue with Harris refusing to take a stand against Israel in Gaza, they abstained or voted third party, and we got Trump. Did Democrats freely release the election autopsy report? No, they fought tooth and nail to hide it for weeks. Did they admit Gaza cost them? No, they’re doing their best not to touch on that. Are they starting to pivot towards opposing Israel in Gaza? Nope. It kinda seems like we gave Republicans power in exchange for absolutely nothing.
Creating an environment where a politician cannot get elected no matter the party thanks to Israel is how you nudge things in the right direction; otherwise you’re just fooling yourself and backing the normalization of genocide
As a long term strategy, I think you’re potentially right from a single topic perspective. The problem with that is that the genocide had already begun and was ongoing. Playing the long game means spending 4 years of Gaza genocide in exchange for the opportunity to prevent the Democrats from supporting the next genocide. In the meantime, the Palestinians are just fucked if we can’t get through to Trump, and no way in fuck are we getting through to Trump. It was a slim chance with the Democrats, but at least we’d have a chance without having to wait 4 years for the next election.
There’s also the problem that things get messy, and it’s really hard to get all the potential horrors covered with a vote. For example, Trump’s revocation of USAID funding is projected to lead to 9.4 million deaths by 2030, which means that that alone is going to cause almost 4x as many deaths as the entire population of Gaza, just from a single one of Trump’s blatantly unconstitutional orders. I’ve heard claims that USAID uses its money to influence regions and could be considered codified corruption, and that’s probably true to at least some extent, but that doesn’t change the fact that 4 whole Gazas’ worth of people are going to die because of Trump. But that’s not genocide, it’s spread across the globe, so it’s not really the same. But it’s also 4x the deaths. No matter who you vote for, they will do something you disagree with, probably something absolutely abhorrent, and that can feel like being complicit, but I think it’s only genuinely complicit if you’re not resisting it or if you’re willingly enabling it. Ultimately, someone is getting elected, and we’re almost certainly not going to approve of everything they do, so we might as well try to limit how shit they are before we have to start resisting the stupid shit.
Why do you think the democrats would be better on Gaza when they have just proven that they would rather lose a presidential election than even pretend to oppose the genocide?
It’s not that I think they’d be better per se. It’s that I think they would be easier to break. And that’s still not to say I think it’d be easy, just easier. But take what advantages we can where we can, and then go do everything you think you should be doing already, just with a little more chance that they cave to it.
First, I think the ceasefire is better ascribed to time and mounting global backlash than it is to Trump
Doesn’t matter what the reasons were, what matters is Trump relented and Biden and Harris didn’t. Despite just as much, if not more backlash (because of their kayfabe of being liberal), they didn’t budge an inch and were so fanatical and dedicated they sacrificed the presidency to maintain support for the genocide, despite the fact internal polling and data was showing the genocide was costing them millions of votes.
That is why your arguments don’t make sense on their face. The DNC is STILL in lockstep with AIPAC and Israel, there hasn’t been any movement internally in the Democratic Party, so it’s ludicrous to assert the Democratic Party would magically change if they won elections without addressing the genocide. All you would accomplish would be to signal to the DNC that they’ve regained their power by being fanatical Zionists and that the American people don’t truly care about genocide, giving them a future permission structure to aid or commit new genocides
Trump’s revocation of USAID funding is projected to lead to 9.4 million deaths by 2030
That nonsense assumes the vacuums wouldn’t be filled by long-suppressed native industries, markets and state initiatives that were undercut by cartel-like “aid”, as well there not being any international aid to make up potential shortfalls
It’s pure racist, paternalistic gibberish with no data to support it. USAID was a US intelligence front that actively destabilized local markets and funneled wealth and “aid” into the hands of corrupt compradors who used to enrich themselves and their families, leading to underfunded industries and communities that likely already led to the deaths of millions
Also I should point out sanctions do kill millions of people and Biden intensified them against Cuba, Iran, Venezuela, even beyond Trump 1 levels, Biden created new frameworks to expand sanctions by orders of magnitude, giving Trump a useful weapon in his second term…
But that’s not genocide, it’s spread across the globe, so it’s not really the same
Then why are you trying to clumsily use the myth of that claim to engage in genocide trivialization? Capitalism through social murder kills millions of people every month. It doesn’t mean genocide isn’t a far more qualitatively abominable development that leads to civilizational destruction far beyond the typical deaths caused by poverty and overall population size
The problem here is you don’t see Palestinians as people deserving of the same unqualified right to exist as anyone else. I bet a million fuckin bucks you’d have never made that sorry argument in relation to Ukraine or the Holocaust
Take it from the old codgers who have been around for decades of politics, this shit is always the same and it never changes. Every election of my life has been “the most important election” to “stop the reactionaries” but then they don’t do anything when they win except further entrench that same reaction. If you actually believe Democrats can be pressured you need to re-asses your priors. It’s a false assumption.
If we prove we’ll keep fucking electing republicans, yeah, we’re never getting anywhere. Voter suppression always favors republicans, and when republicans have a strong chance of victory, it’s a lot easier for democrats to campaign on not being republicans. Spend just one or two hours, just once every year or two at most depending on your jurisdiction, vote for one of the two candidates that is absolutely guaranteed to win because we use a first-past-the-post voting system, help us nudge things in the right direction just a little, even if it’s not as much as you want, and then go right back to whatever you think is going to be more helpful. If your vote didn’t matter, republicans wouldn’t try so damn hard to keep you from using it or getting it meaningfully counted.
No, they have to contend with the primary instead at that point. If progressives and leftists would vote in elections and primaries instead of succumbing to electoral defeatism, we could keep Republicans out of power and drag one major party to the left.
If we prove we’ll keep fucking electing republicans, yeah, we’re never getting anywhere
You really aren’t getting it. Elections will never solve anything in the imperialist core. Electing anyone won’t ever get anyone anywhere in a capitalist society with billions of dollars floating around buying the elections. Open your fucking mind to new possibilities. I will send in a mail-in ballot if you join a communist organization and shut up and listen and do the reading and go to their events, how about that?
I don’t know that I’m ready to join an organization, but I’m open to doing some reading if you’re willing to compromise a bit. I’ve read the Communist Manifesto, and I think it’s inevitably going to become reality, but I think we’ll only ever really achieve it if we can obtain it peacefully. We can’t build a collaborative society with violence, the tools of oppression. I understand the rage over the current state of things, but a society founded on violence can be transformed again through violence. It’ll be achieved once we can organize and act with enough unity to force it peacefully. Maybe a good book or two will change my mind. If you’ll compromise a bit, I’ll agree to read some material if you’ll vote, and I’ll compromise a bit by not pushing you to vote for one of the only two candidates who’s going to win.
Because one of the two will be elected no matter what, and as an example of why that matters, we already had genocide in Gaza, but now we have genocide in Gaza, war in Iran, war in Lebanon, abducted Maduro out of Venezuela, and potentially preparations for war with Cuba. At bare minimum, just about anyone else would have had the sense to stay out of Iran, which also means Israel may have stayed out of Lebanon.
Biden could have stopped it anytime he wanted
Yeah, and he 100% should have, but my point is that we would have both more time to break democrat support and better odds compared to the republicans. It’s obviously not ideal, but I think we should nudge the chances in every way we can, not just in the ways that seems most likely to pay off.
How is getting DNC zionist supporting Democrats elected giving YOU more time to “better the odds”? You’re not nudging in the anti-genocide direction; you’re literally giving the genociders two or four more years of breathing room to support Israel
Because while I think the Democrats are incredibly difficult to force to act, I think the Republicans are genuinely impossible. I know Democrat leadership is never going to just do it willingly, but support for Israel is tanking hard on the American left. At bare minimum, things would be constrained to Gaza instead of Gaza plus Iran and Lebanon. And I know that’s not exactly a great solace to those in Gaza still, but if we’re trying to stop a genocide, my idea was essentially to do everything we can to nudge the odds in our favor. We don’t just push for the Democrat. We spend an hour or two voting to gain that tiny fraction of a percent, then go back to whatever you think is the most optimal resistance. No one factor is going to stop the genocide, or it would have already happened, so we’re gonna have to pile on as many points in our favor, as miniscule as they may be, as possible.
Again this ignores the reality that the ceasefire happened under a Republican, that zionist democrats are just as fanatical as their republican peers when it comes to Israel, that getting zionist democrats elected normalizes genocide, makes it conditional, and gives the overall system a permission structure to justify further genocide against other groups, a permission structure that has already been used in less extreme but still horrific circumstances by Democrats against trans and immigrant communities
The problem here is that you think the Democratic Party is in any way, shape, or form open to Palestinian liberation; they are not, they are so fanatical they sacrificed their own chances in a national election and allowed Donald Trump to regain office, the only sane response to this kind of genocidal derangement is a total boycott of any Democrat who exhibits even the smallest degree of support for Israel
Creating an environment where a politician cannot get elected no matter the party thanks to Israel is how you nudge things in the right direction; otherwise you’re just fooling yourself and backing the normalization of genocide
First, I think the ceasefire is better ascribed to time and mounting global backlash than it is to Trump. Trump is the same one who proposed the US move all the people out and take control, the one who said we should just finish the job, and the one who just a few months ago, several months after the start of the ceasefire, said Gaza was great real estate and that we should clean it out and build skyscrapers. The only thing I’ve seen that Trump has said or done that suggests he gives the slightest shit about Gaza is that the ceasefire happened under him. So it seems more likely that Israel recognizes the global backlash is a threat to their long term support as protesters age up, vote more often, enter political office, and have meaningful money to allocate in boycotts. Once it became clear it was happening, I’d fully expect Trump to dive on the opportunity to take credit for it to stroke his ego and give him another excuse to whine about the peace prize he didn’t get.
No, see, I fully agree that the Democratic Party is going to strongly resist all attempts to break support for Israel in Gaza. I just think that breaking them is more likely than breaking Trump, and we won’t get another chance to choose who we’re pressuring for another 4 years.
The problem I see with a total boycott of the Democratic Party is that this guarantees Republicans win, and when Republicans win, Democrats move to the right to chase centrists and fleeing Republicans. Every time. Not once in my lifetime have I seen the Democrats lose and think to themselves “wow, maybe we should court progressives instead of centrists”. Republicans win, so they pick up Republican tendencies to stay competitive.
Compare that to what happened when we voted. Many people understandably took issue with Harris refusing to take a stand against Israel in Gaza, they abstained or voted third party, and we got Trump. Did Democrats freely release the election autopsy report? No, they fought tooth and nail to hide it for weeks. Did they admit Gaza cost them? No, they’re doing their best not to touch on that. Are they starting to pivot towards opposing Israel in Gaza? Nope. It kinda seems like we gave Republicans power in exchange for absolutely nothing.
As a long term strategy, I think you’re potentially right from a single topic perspective. The problem with that is that the genocide had already begun and was ongoing. Playing the long game means spending 4 years of Gaza genocide in exchange for the opportunity to prevent the Democrats from supporting the next genocide. In the meantime, the Palestinians are just fucked if we can’t get through to Trump, and no way in fuck are we getting through to Trump. It was a slim chance with the Democrats, but at least we’d have a chance without having to wait 4 years for the next election.
There’s also the problem that things get messy, and it’s really hard to get all the potential horrors covered with a vote. For example, Trump’s revocation of USAID funding is projected to lead to 9.4 million deaths by 2030, which means that that alone is going to cause almost 4x as many deaths as the entire population of Gaza, just from a single one of Trump’s blatantly unconstitutional orders. I’ve heard claims that USAID uses its money to influence regions and could be considered codified corruption, and that’s probably true to at least some extent, but that doesn’t change the fact that 4 whole Gazas’ worth of people are going to die because of Trump. But that’s not genocide, it’s spread across the globe, so it’s not really the same. But it’s also 4x the deaths. No matter who you vote for, they will do something you disagree with, probably something absolutely abhorrent, and that can feel like being complicit, but I think it’s only genuinely complicit if you’re not resisting it or if you’re willingly enabling it. Ultimately, someone is getting elected, and we’re almost certainly not going to approve of everything they do, so we might as well try to limit how shit they are before we have to start resisting the stupid shit.
Why do you think the democrats would be better on Gaza when they have just proven that they would rather lose a presidential election than even pretend to oppose the genocide?
It’s not that I think they’d be better per se. It’s that I think they would be easier to break. And that’s still not to say I think it’d be easy, just easier. But take what advantages we can where we can, and then go do everything you think you should be doing already, just with a little more chance that they cave to it.
Doesn’t matter what the reasons were, what matters is Trump relented and Biden and Harris didn’t. Despite just as much, if not more backlash (because of their kayfabe of being liberal), they didn’t budge an inch and were so fanatical and dedicated they sacrificed the presidency to maintain support for the genocide, despite the fact internal polling and data was showing the genocide was costing them millions of votes.
That is why your arguments don’t make sense on their face. The DNC is STILL in lockstep with AIPAC and Israel, there hasn’t been any movement internally in the Democratic Party, so it’s ludicrous to assert the Democratic Party would magically change if they won elections without addressing the genocide. All you would accomplish would be to signal to the DNC that they’ve regained their power by being fanatical Zionists and that the American people don’t truly care about genocide, giving them a future permission structure to aid or commit new genocides
That nonsense assumes the vacuums wouldn’t be filled by long-suppressed native industries, markets and state initiatives that were undercut by cartel-like “aid”, as well there not being any international aid to make up potential shortfalls
It’s pure racist, paternalistic gibberish with no data to support it. USAID was a US intelligence front that actively destabilized local markets and funneled wealth and “aid” into the hands of corrupt compradors who used to enrich themselves and their families, leading to underfunded industries and communities that likely already led to the deaths of millions
Also I should point out sanctions do kill millions of people and Biden intensified them against Cuba, Iran, Venezuela, even beyond Trump 1 levels, Biden created new frameworks to expand sanctions by orders of magnitude, giving Trump a useful weapon in his second term…
Then why are you trying to clumsily use the myth of that claim to engage in genocide trivialization? Capitalism through social murder kills millions of people every month. It doesn’t mean genocide isn’t a far more qualitatively abominable development that leads to civilizational destruction far beyond the typical deaths caused by poverty and overall population size
The problem here is you don’t see Palestinians as people deserving of the same unqualified right to exist as anyone else. I bet a million fuckin bucks you’d have never made that sorry argument in relation to Ukraine or the Holocaust
First time, eh?
Take it from the old codgers who have been around for decades of politics, this shit is always the same and it never changes. Every election of my life has been “the most important election” to “stop the reactionaries” but then they don’t do anything when they win except further entrench that same reaction. If you actually believe Democrats can be pressured you need to re-asses your priors. It’s a false assumption.
If we prove we’ll keep fucking electing republicans, yeah, we’re never getting anywhere. Voter suppression always favors republicans, and when republicans have a strong chance of victory, it’s a lot easier for democrats to campaign on not being republicans. Spend just one or two hours, just once every year or two at most depending on your jurisdiction, vote for one of the two candidates that is absolutely guaranteed to win because we use a first-past-the-post voting system, help us nudge things in the right direction just a little, even if it’s not as much as you want, and then go right back to whatever you think is going to be more helpful. If your vote didn’t matter, republicans wouldn’t try so damn hard to keep you from using it or getting it meaningfully counted.
And when Republicans have no chance of victory they don’t even need to do that.
No, they have to contend with the primary instead at that point. If progressives and leftists would vote in elections and primaries instead of succumbing to electoral defeatism, we could keep Republicans out of power and drag one major party to the left.
You really aren’t getting it. Elections will never solve anything in the imperialist core. Electing anyone won’t ever get anyone anywhere in a capitalist society with billions of dollars floating around buying the elections. Open your fucking mind to new possibilities. I will send in a mail-in ballot if you join a communist organization and shut up and listen and do the reading and go to their events, how about that?
I don’t know that I’m ready to join an organization, but I’m open to doing some reading if you’re willing to compromise a bit. I’ve read the Communist Manifesto, and I think it’s inevitably going to become reality, but I think we’ll only ever really achieve it if we can obtain it peacefully. We can’t build a collaborative society with violence, the tools of oppression. I understand the rage over the current state of things, but a society founded on violence can be transformed again through violence. It’ll be achieved once we can organize and act with enough unity to force it peacefully. Maybe a good book or two will change my mind. If you’ll compromise a bit, I’ll agree to read some material if you’ll vote, and I’ll compromise a bit by not pushing you to vote for one of the only two candidates who’s going to win.
If a Democrat wants my vote, they can try not supporting genocide. Why would I reward a genocidaire with my vote?
Because one of the two will be elected no matter what, and as an example of why that matters, we already had genocide in Gaza, but now we have genocide in Gaza, war in Iran, war in Lebanon, abducted Maduro out of Venezuela, and potentially preparations for war with Cuba. At bare minimum, just about anyone else would have had the sense to stay out of Iran, which also means Israel may have stayed out of Lebanon.
Israel started bombing Beirut in September 2024, under Biden.
Maybe next time, the Democrats will know that they need stop the genocide if they want to win the next election