They do not work for their alleged intended purpose (often just making things worse) and treat people like shit.
I partly agree with this part, definitely as they are implemented in the US. What do you think the solution should be if someone robs a liquor store or rapes their neighbor?
I have actually worked in a store where a person stole alcohol before, I reported it happening and apparently he killed himself after that. It was at that moment I thought to myself, never again and realised the solution wasn’t to punish people but to offer them help in their lives to deal with whatever they were dealing with.
For rape, it is more difficult, but I think it requires serious societal restructuring, teaching people that it is never okay, respecting their consent from a young age and so teaching them to respect other’s consent or lack thereof too, which is something not done enough. I have seen for myself parents that don’t give a shit about children’s consent and then are surprised when the children don’t respect other’s consent either.
As for what to do about it afterwards? Clearly cops, jails, prisons etc do not stop it (and make it worse) so I strongly believe in both restorative justice and communities keeping others safe. Sadly this will be difficult to achieve in ‘the west’ which is based a lot on fierce individualism as we are weaker apart and those in power know this which is why it is pushed so hard, but I believe it is at least a good start. Also we all stop the slut shaming etc, nobody ever asks for rape.
I think dissasociating from, or at least calling out, people who promote/are proud of rape and rape culture is important too.
Sounds about right. A lot of these situations are symptoms of societal rot. Investing in punishing crime after the fact does basically nothing to reduce it, where fixing economic working conditions so that people won’t be put into desperate situations helps to resolve theft and violence because people can just live and be normal and it’s okay. Imagine that.
That said I am deeply skeptical of the idea of abolishing prisons before doing that so that all these broken people can just be loose roaming the streets damaging others in the meantime. But you’re not wrong I think about the uselessness of it as a permanent solution. And making police and prisons more punishing as a solution to invest any type of effort into, because there is still crime because our society is broken, is worse than useless.
Tim Leary’s autobiography has a fascinating part about this, about him organizing a research project inside a prison, trying to use LSD and meditation to bring people to an actual awareness of themselves as humans. It’s fucking fascinating. By far the best part was that because he was actually rehabilitating people and bringing them to a positive solution where they as individuals could be functional members of a working society, people inside the system predicted to him that the project would be shut down because it’s unprofitable to go that way. I don’t know if that was why it got shut down, but it did get shut down. Even though it was bringing great results even within the awful limits of our broken society and system. Exactly as predicted. Go figure.
I am of the opinion that 99% of crimes that currently involve prison sentences (like robbery) should not. I’ve never heard of e.g. a billionaire robbing a liquor store (though I wouldn’t put it past Branson), and there are many studies that show that the vast majority of crime is driven by socioeconomic factors.
For the remaining, more heinous, often more personal crimes like domestic violence, murder of known persons (many murders are also functions of socioeconomics), and rape, I think the response should be bespoke. Even just the 3 I listed have very different causes, motivations, chances of recurrence, etc. Psychological assessments should be the first touch points in those cases, imo, to determine what kind of and how feasible rehabilitation is. The money we spend on the thousands of police who terrorize minorities and poor people, and their paramilitary gear just for them to look macho while they chase some poor person who stole some snacks from a store, could easily pay for this system many times over.
I am not personally a complete prison abolitionist however (though US ones need abolishment, 1000%), because I do not accept capital punishment, and an uncomfortable reality many prison abolitionists tend not to address is what to do with someone who is cognizant of their actions, resistant to rehabilitation, or who professes intent or are assessed by a medical professional to be likely to do something heinous again. You eventually are left with either physically remove their ability to to the bad thing, or just accept their actions.
Luckily, there are very few people who are just pathologically compelled to murder/ rape/ assault; most are opportunistic and emotion-driven. Even for those last few, however, there are sometimes alternatives to permanent incarceration.
I partly agree with this part, definitely as they are implemented in the US. What do you think the solution should be if someone robs a liquor store or rapes their neighbor?
I have actually worked in a store where a person stole alcohol before, I reported it happening and apparently he killed himself after that. It was at that moment I thought to myself, never again and realised the solution wasn’t to punish people but to offer them help in their lives to deal with whatever they were dealing with.
For rape, it is more difficult, but I think it requires serious societal restructuring, teaching people that it is never okay, respecting their consent from a young age and so teaching them to respect other’s consent or lack thereof too, which is something not done enough. I have seen for myself parents that don’t give a shit about children’s consent and then are surprised when the children don’t respect other’s consent either.
As for what to do about it afterwards? Clearly cops, jails, prisons etc do not stop it (and make it worse) so I strongly believe in both restorative justice and communities keeping others safe. Sadly this will be difficult to achieve in ‘the west’ which is based a lot on fierce individualism as we are weaker apart and those in power know this which is why it is pushed so hard, but I believe it is at least a good start. Also we all stop the slut shaming etc, nobody ever asks for rape.
I think dissasociating from, or at least calling out, people who promote/are proud of rape and rape culture is important too.
Sounds about right. A lot of these situations are symptoms of societal rot. Investing in punishing crime after the fact does basically nothing to reduce it, where fixing economic working conditions so that people won’t be put into desperate situations helps to resolve theft and violence because people can just live and be normal and it’s okay. Imagine that.
That said I am deeply skeptical of the idea of abolishing prisons before doing that so that all these broken people can just be loose roaming the streets damaging others in the meantime. But you’re not wrong I think about the uselessness of it as a permanent solution. And making police and prisons more punishing as a solution to invest any type of effort into, because there is still crime because our society is broken, is worse than useless.
Tim Leary’s autobiography has a fascinating part about this, about him organizing a research project inside a prison, trying to use LSD and meditation to bring people to an actual awareness of themselves as humans. It’s fucking fascinating. By far the best part was that because he was actually rehabilitating people and bringing them to a positive solution where they as individuals could be functional members of a working society, people inside the system predicted to him that the project would be shut down because it’s unprofitable to go that way. I don’t know if that was why it got shut down, but it did get shut down. Even though it was bringing great results even within the awful limits of our broken society and system. Exactly as predicted. Go figure.
I am of the opinion that 99% of crimes that currently involve prison sentences (like robbery) should not. I’ve never heard of e.g. a billionaire robbing a liquor store (though I wouldn’t put it past Branson), and there are many studies that show that the vast majority of crime is driven by socioeconomic factors.
For the remaining, more heinous, often more personal crimes like domestic violence, murder of known persons (many murders are also functions of socioeconomics), and rape, I think the response should be bespoke. Even just the 3 I listed have very different causes, motivations, chances of recurrence, etc. Psychological assessments should be the first touch points in those cases, imo, to determine what kind of and how feasible rehabilitation is. The money we spend on the thousands of police who terrorize minorities and poor people, and their paramilitary gear just for them to look macho while they chase some poor person who stole some snacks from a store, could easily pay for this system many times over.
I am not personally a complete prison abolitionist however (though US ones need abolishment, 1000%), because I do not accept capital punishment, and an uncomfortable reality many prison abolitionists tend not to address is what to do with someone who is cognizant of their actions, resistant to rehabilitation, or who professes intent or are assessed by a medical professional to be likely to do something heinous again. You eventually are left with either physically remove their ability to to the bad thing, or just accept their actions.
Luckily, there are very few people who are just pathologically compelled to murder/ rape/ assault; most are opportunistic and emotion-driven. Even for those last few, however, there are sometimes alternatives to permanent incarceration.