SO. MUCH. THIS.
Ok but first manufacturers must “rethink” planned obsolescence and right to repair
I agree. I’m tired of always blaming the end users for everything
This.
we don’t “this” here.
But apparently you do diss.
Planned obsolescense is a myth. It’s just cost-benefit that makes old tech crappy. Tech keeps getting better, and supporting the old device is a pain for no extra money. And phone architecture is stupid so they need every single part supplier to provide updates if they want to update the OS, unlike PCs where the hardware is better-abstracted.
You’re either a troll or an uninformed idiot who has never done operating system development. A properly modularised OS can allow for minimal upkeep for older hardware. A leading example is Apple’s .kext system allowing for near 10 years of OS support both on macOS and iOS. Not that I think Apple is a great company but they do have some really good software development practices.
Also regardless of the technical explanination above, accepting a constant flow of e-waste for the sake of a new shiny year is just unethical regardless of the supposed reason.
I actually did do operating system development, at least back in school. But comparing Apple to everybody else is insane when Apple controls the full vertical stack of end to end hardware. You may as well compare them to the driver support on Nintendo or Toyota.
And also there’s the problem that the Android OS is based on Linux which handles the “wierd new hardware” problem by recompiling the kernel, which doesn’t work so well with closed-source binary drivers. And that’s before even getting into the ARM architecture.
I’m not sure why you’re getting downvoted because your argument is right. Apple has a rather small number of hardware devices to support. That makes long term support a lot easier.
Edit: I mostly disagree with your previous argument though. Planned obsolescence is alive and thriving. I’ve seen so many PCB layouts where heat sensitive parts were placed right next to heat emitting ones that I cannot believe this is by accident.
I’m playing around with OS development only as a hobby currently. I don’t know much about black box insides of macOS however I have used third party drivers as well as looked into how the kext system is structured and it really seems like a master class of software engineering. Having the drivers structured hierarchically under categories/subsystems and with multiple kernel API revisions supported means the kexts work over a wider lifespan.
Also comparing Apple to the rest of industry is not completely unreasonable for one reason. Modern register level documentation is hidden under shitty NDA’s and aren’t even complete half the time, with the usually poorly written SDK being used as documentation instead. Even better is when parts of the SDK are fucking binaries with no hopes of figuring out where the bug lies. The top dog of course is no SDK whatsoever and instead opting to release a fixed, factory compiled linux kernel release for Android only. I believe this is what Qualcomm mostly do and why those Android releases have a fixed lifespan of 3-5 years. When this is how over half the Android phone SoC market operates, I wonder how half of them make it to market working as well as they do.
Linux on the other hand is just a mess (In more ways than one. I have low opinions of it). That is not a good example of modular driver support. The unwillingness of the Linux community from both userspace applications / libraries and kernelspace to maintain a versioned API system with rigorous testing for compliance and to instead create a moving target is nothing short of a fucking joke. It’s no wonder Android can’t easily maintain cross-generation support. Then there is the lack of support for running different versions of libraries side by side as necessary.
I run a Linux server for home use as it’s still king in this regard and have sometime attempted to use Linux as a desktop. However I eventually come to the same conclusion that it’s just too unstable and “patched together”. My daily driver is still a mac, no matter how much I want to move away due to Apple’s worsening business practices.
Sorry for getting heated. It just really boils me when people defend poor software development practices because it the “industry standard”. I disdain manufactured e-waste stemming from rubbish software development practices.
Sir, you can prove someone wrong without insults. You need to chill a bit.
Sorry about that but it really boils me when people defend poor software development practices when making the point of supporting hardware for a long time is difficult.
Shh corporation bad giv updoot.
it’s not just phones or devices that need updates, though. None of my refrigerators, washing machines, dishwashers have ever lasted more than 10 years; I think the average is about 5 years before they stop working, get all rusty or a very expensive piece breaks so they are not worth repairing. Meanwhile all of my granma’s old kitchen appliances are still working perfectly after 60+ years of service.
Sure, it might be just that over-optimizing their production so they are more performant while being cheaper to make is also making them less durable, but I don’t see a lot of motivation from companies to go out of their way to build durable things either. And it’s not that I think Corporate = Bad; as you say it’s a cost/benefit thing, it’s just that the “benefit” companies try to maximize is their shareholders’, not our planet’s. It’s on Politics to create a legal framework where some of the cost to our planet is shared with companies (so they have incentives to make things durable/repairable again) and on us consumer to choose wisely what to buy, when and from whom.
maybe it’s my personality or i’m old but i keep my things (including tech) until they become unusable. i’ve never thought about upgrading my phone every couple of years. i kept my last phone for 6 years (it became a brick), my current phone is from 2018.
I intentionally buy things that I know I can use until they are unusable. I do not often buy anything from apple.
Me too. My phone is 10 years old, my microwave is 40 yrs old, my car is 24, my home theater amp is 25.
I take pride in taking care of my stuff and making it last as long as possible. It’s something I got from my grandmother who wouldn’t let anything go to waste. (She was a refugee from ww2, so she knew a thing or two about making things last and making due.) Obviously not everything can last that long, but if you get good quality things chances are it’ll be around a lot longer than if you just buy cheap or flashy stuff.
In the era when everyone seem to be taking out expensive contracts for new phones every year I have had just 4 smart phones in the past 20 ish years. They all reach the stage where they are just too slow for modern apps but I think we might finally be in the stage where compute power progress has slowed that the current phone might get an open source Lineage et el on it for a decent period of time with multiple battery swaps.
Me too. my phone is from 2017 and I’m fine with it. It’s part of your personality, to preserve things. Associating personality traits to being “old” or to any stigmatized aspect in our society is a dirty trick to manipulate people (in this case, used to force people into consumerism). Just be yourself, and don’t feel bad about it.
Legalize Right To Repair Ban Planned Obsolescence
Boom, solved the problem. But once again it’s easier to shame Joe Q. Public than hold the real criminals accountable.
Won’t solve the problem of people spending 1000+ dollars a year on the latest and newest because they need it as a status symbol to fill the vacuous hole where a personality would be.
and I’d wager more people are buying new phones every year for that reason, than due to forced obsolescence.
Some people will do that regardless, but I would keep all of my phones for longer if the batteries were easily changeable and they didn’t eventually grind to a halt. I loved my Pixel 3a and would still be using it today if I could.
living from the ego is a choice. everyone is free to examine their values and beliefs, and choose a life that supports their well being. not doing this is pricy.
I mean if they can afford that, good on them I guess? But it really would help for the rest of us who ya know, don’t base their personality on whatever they’re lugging around in their pockets.
Isnt gonna solve the problem entirely but will make a huge difference. Cant say anything about the iphone craze in US but at least here most change their mobile only when issues pop up and repairs get too expensive or impossible.
It’s not even everywhere in the US, where I live there are people still using flip phones out of necessity.
And I’ve only really ever changed smart phones twice myself, new phones are just too dang expensive.
Ban glue in non-waterproof electronics. I remember when I didn’t need to risk destroying a device with a heat-gun to open it up and repair it like 10 years ago, but y’know, everything needed to be thinner.
Thats one thing that boggles me… I’ve never heard a single person go “Y’know, this phone is nice…but I wish it was thinner and more fragile”.
I’m convinced they just want to make phones thinner, and push screens further to the edge (or in the case of Galaxy, around the edge and down the side) just to make them more likely to break when dropped.
You’re on Lemmy. That means you’re probably not a “form over function” shopper, y’know?
True
I get where you’re coming from, and maybe I was just lucky, but holy hell my note 10+ was a TANK despite the reach around screen. Miss that phone already, I got talked into swapping when I moved and had to change Internet not long ago. A month after having my pixel 7 pro, and one fall from the edge of my desk onto the carpet, and the bottom half of the screen shits itself lol
In waterproof ones too. It isn’t hard to make use of stainless steel screws and a simple O-Ring (see computer waterblocks).
Reminder that industrial handheld computers, despite being way more water and everything else resistant than an iPhone will ever be, and whose environmental resistance is absolutely critical to their function and not just a marketing bullet point, are also repairable and upgradable. They work for decades with periodic maintainance which is actually why heavy industry seems so “behind the times” on upgrading their equipment, they simply don’t have to because their existing gear is so resilient.
If what you seek is a repairable phone, check out the Fairphone 5. Got mine for a week now (transparent édition), incredible little machine. Not as waterproof as an IPhone, but way more repairable. And supported until at least 2028 (maybe 2031).
I have a fairphone 4 and I love it.
Smartphones have been “good enough” for a while now. Enough power and battery to do all the things needed for enough time before running out of battery.
IMHO there are 2 reasons we still regularly upgrade.
- “Obsolescence” wether it would be perceived new hardware features or just new software not being available
- Use/breakage (I include batteries dying in that) with no reasonable way to replace parts
I’ve had a few phones over the years some of them I “legitimately” just broke (one had a cracked mb after a bike accident) I broke my second to last phone trying to replace the battery (thought I would be able to, broke the screen). The fact that everything is glued down and made to not be replaceable irked me so much that my current phone is a Fairphone. Replacing the battery takes 1 minute and requires no tools. Replacing the screen takes like 5 min and 8 screws. I plan on using this phone for at least 5 years more if possible. But I understand not everybody can shell out 600 dollars for an “OK” phone.
deleted by creator
It’s good practice to buy at least one or two new smartphones per year.
Thank you for the tip, Mr Business Man!
Battery degrades every six months, and most batteries sold are either cheap but fake or QC-passed but as expensive as a brand-new phone.
Dude the downvotes, it’s a joke. Should I put /s? lol
Battery degradation is real, but typically lithium batteries in phones should last 18-24 months before their noticeability bad enough to want to warrant a replacement.
But, if you’re constantly leaving it in a hot car, draining it to near 0%, or otherwise stressing it out, it will will significantly worse off, even at 6 months.
Reduce. Repair. Recycle.
Most phones, break this at every step.
A big part of it is built in batteries that are difficult to replace. My phone has a removable battery and is on its third one now… still works fine and does everything I want it to, after 10 years of use.
Edit: It’s running Lineage Os 18 (android 11) not the original android 5(?) it came with, so security updates are not an issue.
deleted by creator
This 100% since my screen has a small crack in the corner, I need a new screen just to get to the battery.
Because of this they want me to leave my phone with them for up to 30 days while they order the parts. It’s an iPhone XR. How can they not have parts?
I know it’s because apple makes it difficult on purpose.
Also there are not Apple Store in the country where I live, so I have to go through an authorized provider.
I’ll get a 15, but then I’m taking this phone to an unofficial repair shop to get it fixed up for cheap.
why would you keep buying Apple
Gonna take a couple guesses here.
- Given that they’re upgrading from a 5 year old phone (that wasn’t the flagship when it was released) that’s still getting iOS updates and that no Android phone has historically had a similar guaranteed amount of support (and currently only the Pixel 8 is rumored to offer more) they might want to be able to keep their next phone for 5+ years.
- Third party iOS apps are still generally better than third party Android apps and they might value the improved experience.
- They might not want to deal with manufacturer installed bloatware.
- They might otherwise be invested in the Apple ecosystem - AirPods, Apple Watch, MacBook, etc.
- They might want updates ASAP (instead of getting it months or weeks later).
- They might not want to think so hard about which Android phone to buy.
- They likely don’t value the advantages Android has over iOS (more customizable, earlier features, actual file system browsing, etc.) as highly as the advantages iOS has.
- They might not want to learn a new mobile OS, and they might value the consistency and simplicity of iOS.
There are a few reasons like their extended software support and their built in text recognition and translation features.
I don’t live in my home country and this is very very useful.
Since everyone in America uses iOS and iMessage only, I’m kinda locked into iMessage for communications.
I know there are other messaging apps, but no one has any of them. There are people I communicate with just a few times a year and I can’t ask them to download an app just to occasionally chat or catch up.
I also use very few google services. In fact if you don’t count invidious I only have a gmail account which I use for no personal stuff like Netflix accounts and stuff.
The good news is in a pinch you can fry an egg on a 15
Sure, let’s blame consumer for corporate policies
It’s both really. Too many people rock a cracked screen, then upgrade it as soon as they can. Rather than looking after their device or getting it repaired.
But at the same time, corporations limit device longevity due to bad practices. Like limited security updates, planned obsolescence and anti-repair policies.
In short, not enough people care enough, and the companies prey on this. Attacking the “upgrade culture” is valuable, as legislating against these bad practices can only happen if the people exert enough political pressure
Same situation as plastic straws. Let’s blame the public for using straws, when actually it’s industries and corporate policies that refuse to adopt better practices.
At work my manager still rocks an old Motorola g5 plus. He says phones have reached peak performance and there’s no point of upgrading. Hes a humble, down to earth guy also make $210k/ year.
The problem is that there are security updates that those old phones need and aren’t getting. The whole “let’s tie the operating system binaries to the hardware” thing was always dumb, somehow Windows can handle binary-blob drivers that aren’t built into the OS.
Oh I loved that phone! I still have it but I didn’t have the balls to replace the built in battery so I reluctantly decided to upgrade
He replaced the battery by himself. Ordered stuff from ifixit.
Peak is definitely not true, but there is no point in upgrading for the foreseeable future.
I hope my phone lasts me decades. I don’t really see it being incapable of doing what I need it to unless we radically change how we use our phones.
I’m sure people have felt the same way about PCs, too. Ever since Sandy Bridge, there hasn’t really been a reason for most PC users to upgrade unless they were gaming or did some other CPU-intensive task.
I’ll tell you right now your phone wont last a decade.
That battery, even with light usage, will eventually degrade to the point you’ll have to charge it multiple times a day to keep it alive.
and then you’ll have to do the math and decide between getting a new battery and just getting a new phone.
Thats the decision i had to make when I needed a battery for my old phone… Did the math and found the cost of a new (to me) used phone was close enough to the cost of the replacement battery + labor that it was more value to me getting the newer phone, with newer OS, and still in the receiving update window than putting a aftermarket battery in my old phone.
Granted, the math gets heavily skewed in favor of a new battery if you are well experienced in cellphone disassembly and know you can do it without breaking the screen or back. I’m not, and any savings would go out the door if I broke anything, which is why I was going to let a professional do it.
I would listen to you, but I was using my previous phone for 5 years and noticed no degradation in battery life. I only upgraded to this one because it was free.
Sorry man, maybe you’re right and time will tell. But we’ll just have to wait and see. This phone has a significantly larger battery, too.
If there was no degredation after 5 years and thousands of charge cycles, then you need to rush your phone off to scientists so they can discover the miracle materials inside it 😜
Phones have to easily repairable before you can blame consumers for upgrading. Cell phones are pretty essential for modern life and most of us don’t want to be without them for long. The upgrade allows for people to not have to worry about what to do when something out of warranty breaks. It is like fixing your car. In warranty, the manufacturer or dealer takes care of things. Out of warranty, you have to find a repair shop. Finding a repair shop is difficult. Trying to get a second or third quote on a broken car is difficult and costly.
The alternative is to make repair shops have transparent prices and make it easy for them to get oem parts. The other option is to force companies to warranty their phones for longer. Until the government does one of those you can’t blame consumers.
It is possible to find phones that are easy to repair in Europe. I think they are going to hit the American market in a few months.
So now that people have options, it is really on the consumer side.
I know about the fairphone. It just now became available for sell in the US No one except maybe IT people know about it. Consumers have to know about the choice to make it. It is also ridiculous to point to one choice that isn’t available yet and blame the consumers.
I meant now that there will be an option. Plus, I’m not blaming, that would make no sense because I thought the phone wasn’t out yet.
Yeah, but that’s an insanely recent development
Dawg, I only upgrade phones and laptops once every 8 years or so. These things are EXPENSIVE, I can’t afford one more often than that.
My current tablet came out in 2014, that’s when I got it. It’ll be a decade old in just a few months.
Besides swapping the battery out twice over the years, it still works great and does everything I need it to do. Fantastic big AMOLED display, too.
Yea, idk, I’m upgrading my phone after 3 years, and if this buyer comes through I’ll have paid $100 for that 3 years of use.
I think a lot of people treat the idea of upgrading often as the old become ewaste immediately or is just kept in a drawer. But selling my used gear while it still has value keeps my overall burden down and devices much cheaper. I upgraded to the Pro Max this year, and out of pocket after this sale I’m spending $350. If I had had the Pro Max before I’d probably be getting another $100 or so for my used device. I’ll do the same thing in 3 - 5 years depending on if/when I have an incentive to upgrade again.
Laptops and tablets are a different story since they don’t keep their value quite as well as iPhones do, and if I’m honest have a much smaller impact on my daily life.
Most of those older $300-400 Android phones are ewaste for the most part after 3-5 years. Higher-end everything is more valuable and generally lasts longer. $50 work boots vs $400 work boots.
Modern $300-400 phones however I think will last 5 years easily in terms of performance depending on your needs.
I’m still rocking my Galaxy S8! Gonna keep it till the battery is toast.
Replacing the battery is not too hard too
S7, hoping to move up soon, but the paper aint really been there and it’s not like Pokemon Go’s a high priority in my life
Which tablet is it?
I keep seeing the complaints, but do enough people actually upgrade yearly? Because anecdotally (including online communities in this) I have seen most people claim that they only upgrade every 3-5 years and I think that’s sensible as an upgrade cycle and will only get longer now if my own feelings match the general populace.
I personally have found myself needing an upgrade every 3 years on average and think I’ll find a way to go longer with phones which don’t lose security updates around the exact time the battery starts swelling on my old phone (my previous reason for upgrading and seems to be happening again)
In the US at least, I think most people get their phones through their carrier and are stuck on a contract paying it off for ~3 years. I think rich people and enthusiasts/fanboys are the only ones who upgrade every year or buy it unlocked at full price from the manufacturer.
I am not in the US and not locked into a contract and neither is anyone I know IRL but nonetheless we do upgrade at the same cadence. As for the people who upgrade their phones yearly, unless they’re keeping the old phones in a locked box I think it is not that bad if those old phones see use as an upgrade for someone else (either given or sold as a second hand device) or even if those phones run duty as a makeshift device.
I personally think it only becomes a problem if it’s literally e-waste or if the majority of people were upgrading yearly (which is again because it’ll lead to the first problem but felt like putting it separately too). If it’s playing some role in the world it’s okay¹ in my book.
^(1: I wonder if people who use their old phones as a secondary device (eg: a music player for running)^) ^(are creating e-waste or not. As in if it would’ve been better if they used only one device for both purposes and either gave/sold the old phone or didn’t buy a new phone in the first place. After all one could make the case that battery degradation would make them need an earlier upgrade)
Most people in the world buys full price from manufacturer. And they are not rich or enthusiasts at all. It’s just in the US the consumerist mindset of paying $1500 over 3 years for a $800 phone is enforced by the carriers. And the ones who go out of that mindset to fanboy, buy $1500 overpriced phones. Most people aren’t buying flagship phones. Mid and low performance phones are perfectly serviceable for the vast majority of people.
I dunno, my phone’s always start to have issues if I keep them too long. Boot loops, frequent crashing, random resets, functionality failing to work as it did when new, lack of security updates, etc. The hardware is built to fail
…no longer receiving updates.
Also it was hella expensive back then. You can get a Pixel 8 for the same price with 7 years of updates. Way better value.
Yeah :( I love my 2017-2018 phone to death (it’s a Pixel 2 XL, and in the ~€400 phone market they are still trying to beat its camera quality 6 years later - and since it’s a Pixel it’s still more fluid than several phones I try in store, like €400-500 Samsungs, that display evident stutters that mine does not), but it has started with the random crashes and “dying” (boot loops followed by not turning on anymore) for a few minutes / hours before coming back to its senses occasionally
Yeah, I’d still be using my galaxy note 4 if it didnt start having so many issues. Used that phone for what seemed like 6 years. Well built, but the replaceable batteries that were reliable were harder to come by. It had boot loop issues, it had some sort of memory corruption defect that was common with note 4s.
It’s impossible if the vendors stop shipping os updates. I can’t use an out of date phone for my works 2fa push. Kept my phone for 5 years and it was still going, but the planned obsolescence got me.
Have a Note 10+
Screen needs replacing : $450 + tax (cdn) Only one more year of security updates
Bought a “renewed” s23 for $700. I didn’t want to but it didn’t make sense to sink so much into the old phone even though it worked fine. It pained me to give up the SD card slot…
I feel that. I was rocking an S8 I got Black Friday 2017, but I finally had to upgrade in March to an S23. The battery just couldn’t get through the day anymore and I didn’t want to go through the hassle of swapping the battery myself. I couldn’t ship it somewhere to get it done either as I use it for work purposes.
I was perfectly content with the S8, otherwise. I could have used it for another 5 years if the battery was easily swappable.
I’m hoping my S23 will last me another 5.5 years (I enabled battery save mode so it only charges to 85%, which is more than enough for me). And by that point, I hope Fairphone has a flagship that’s good enough to switch to.
Using a phone that long is risky due to the lack of security updates, especially if you’re using it for work. People not using phones longer is a problem, but the bigger issue is manufacturers killing support so quickly to force people into upgrading.
I recently upgraded after 5 years on an iPhone because it reached the end of its support cycle. I considered another iPhone because 5 years of support is great, but really didn’t feel like paying another $1000+ for what is essentially the same phone I was already using, just with a different body. So I went with a used Pixel 7 on ebay and installed GrapheneOS on it, and I’m very happy with it. I’m getting the same 5 years of support, a more secure OS, and I’m recycling at the same time!
I would probably still be using my Pixel 2XL if the battery didn’t die. Or a Nexus 6P if that didn’t die from the hardware defect they got sued for. Probably even the OnePlus One before that too, but that may be a bit old for daily use
The 2xl was fantastic. I’m on the 6 now and I miss how light it was, but the higher refresh rate is nice.
I stopped using mine a few years ago, because it would not hold charge, and would also just shutdown at 20%. Upgraded to a Galaxy Note 10, because it was new at the time, and I managed to get it at a 600$ discount. Deeply regret getting it, by this day.
My mom still uses her 2XL today, however we’ve upgrading her to a new phone next week
