Note to the haters: if you threaten me like you apparently threatened the poster of the other thread complaining about cm0002’s multiple accounts which caused them to delete their post and their account and leave Lemmy, I will report you and repost screenshots of your threats publicly. If you act too egregiously, I will report you to law enforcement and/or my lawyer. I have legal insurance and am willing to use it. Be civil and let us have a civilized discussion.
I had noticed that cm0002 was a high-volume poster on Lemmy a while ago. After they cross-posted a few of my posts from lemmy.ml communities to other communities on other instances, I asked them about their motivation for doing this. They are open and public about their desire to draw traffic away from lemmy.ml and support away from Lemmy devs because they think that “tankies” are going to destroy the Threadiverse. I was having a decent, amicable discussion with them on direct messages, but as soon as I expressed that I was sympathetic to some of the political views of the so-called “tankies”, I never got a reply.
Then the whole post about them creating accounts on pretty much every Threadiverse instance came up just yesterday (https://lemmy.sdf.org/post/45730651). While some people defended this type of activity as not being ban-evasion because they are not trying to hide being the same user, I feel that if nothing else, this makes it more difficult for moderators to review a user’s posting history to spot a pattern of bad behavior. If someone reports one of the (dozens? hundreds?) of cm0002 accounts, a mod may see only a few posts from the reported account and not get a full picture of this user.
Finally, I started looking into their one-person crusade against Lemmy devs, lemmy.ml, and “tankies”. I started looking at their claims more closely and didn’t like what I saw. To me it seems like they are making many distorted or debatable claims and spamming the Threadiverse with these. I read their “megathread” (https://sh.itjust.works/post/37226752) of supposed evidence that the Lemmy devs, lemmy.ml, and “tankies” are bad, and think the whole thing is lame, flawed, and dangerous:
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First, notice that the majority of posts that they link contain only what they would like you to see, and not a link to the original thread where one would be able evaluate the context for what was said.
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Second, notice that even where screenshots are provided, what the list item claims was said is most often not what was actually said. In other words, distortions. Specifically, most of the items that are claimed to be direct quotes (based on the quote marks around them) don’t at all appear to be actual quotes. I’m not a lawyer, but I would think that in many jurisdictions this would be grounds for a libel lawsuit.
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Third, most of the items that are not outright distortions are either exaggerations or debatable.
I personally feel that this crusade is more damaging to the Threadiverse than anything that they have complained about. I’ve been tired for a while of all the whining that I see here about “tankies” (Tankie Derangement Syndrome?), but have been holding my tongue. All this stuff from cm0002 is finally driving me to respond. Look, it’s fine to have the beliefs of a liberal, conservative, MAGA, loyal supporter of the United States’ imperial project, or a “tankie”. Live and let live. Learn to accept that people who think differently from you may have legitimate and valid reasons for thinking that way, as much as you may disagree (except fascists). I wish people would learn to agree to disagree after a discussion reaches a certain point where it becomes clear that it’s no longer productive. What’s not fine is to relentlessly target and persecute other people and other instances (again, except fascists). This is why I call this a crusade, because it’s nearly religious in nature. These people and instances haven’t committed any crime. Threadiverse visitors don’t deserve to be bombarded with all the whining and complaining that we often see. For all the complaining that I see about “Russian/Chinese bots”, I sometimes wonder if many of the complainers aren’t either intelligence or corporate agents trying to destabilize the Threadiverse.
My proposal: If nothing else comes out of this, I think that it would be beneficial to the Threadiverse if all instances added rules against disparaging, targeting, and persecuting other instances and users of other instances in general, especially if using false claims that border on libel, if they don’t already have such a rule. If we want to see the Threadiverse be sustainable as a Reddit alternative in the long term, I think that this would be a useful step contributing to that.
Another thing: I think that most instances defederating the so-called “tankie triad” (hexbear.net, lemmygrad.ml and lemmy.ml) is stupid to start with and damaging to the health of Lemmy and the Threadiverse (Lemmy/Mbin/Piefed), considering that at least Lemmy (and I imagine the others too) now allows users to block entire instances and allows admins to make this user-level block the default for new users. My instance, lemmy.zip, takes this default user-level block approach (for hexbear and lemmygrad) and I think that it’s a reasonable way to handle any concerns about the “triad”.
Anyway, I decided to look through cm0002’s “megathread” (https://sh.itjust.works/post/37226752) that they keep spamming and make comments showing how just about every item on the list is flawed, in my opinion. I only looked through the supposed “noteworthy selection” since those have their comments about the item on the main list. I suspect that most people wouldn’t look past that list and take it at face value. Note that most of them seem to indicate either problems with reading comprehension, malicious distortions, or lame complaints about random internet comments. There is no point in debating the items below with me. It’s fine to debate the items above with me. Like I said above, learn to accept that people may think differently than you do and learn to agree to disagree.
Dessalines - Head .ml admin - Head Lemmy Dev
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“Slava Ukraini” is considered a “Fascist slogan” - https://lemmy.world/post/36065538 - Debatable. It has a history of use by fascists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava_Ukraini
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“NK is actually good, and anything counter to that is Western LIES” - https://lemmy.world/post/31595035 - Distortion. Note the quotes, making this appear to be a direct quote, whereas Dessalines doesn’t appear to have written the quoted text on this linked thread.
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“The BBC is not a credible news source” - https://lemmy.world/post/35824465 - Debatable. First, it’s a partial quote with no link to the original thread to get the context of the comment. Second, not credible is perhaps exaggerating a bit, but BBC news earns plenty of valid criticisms about bias. Here’s a collection of many of the criticisms: https://iea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/BBC Bias Chp 3.pdf
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Showing support for Ukraine on .ml is worthy of a site ban - https://lemmy.world/post/32775563 - Distortion, debatable, and exaggeration. First, the comment used the slogan from item 1. Second, also note that it was a 30 day ban, which the lemmy.ml code of conduct appears to call a “kick” as opposed to a permanent ban.
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Open declaration of support for Russia - https://lemmy.world/post/27352415 - Distortion and debatable. Even though from what I’ve seen in the past I believe that Dessalines possibly supports Russia, that is not what the posted chart shows. The chart is not unconditionally supporting Russia. It’s making the claim that if a person supports Russia (in the Russia-Ukraine conflict) AND Palestine (in the Israel-Palestine conflict), it means they "fully understands the core of international geopolitics, while if they support Russia AND Israel, they believe in “Social Darwinism” (i.e., the discredited idea that stronger countries are always right). In other words, the chart is absolutely not unconditionally supporting Russia.
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"Don’t worry guys, the Uyghur Genocide was REALLY just birth control! - https://lemmy.world/post/30580167 - Distortion. Again a completely fake quote and again no link to original thread for context.
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Censoring criticism of China while allowing fellow “in-crowd” user “concentration camps were just reeducation camps and weren’t that bad” misinfo to remain - https://lemmy.world/post/26985447 - Distortion and Debatable. The first comment that was removed seemed to be criticizing the Soviet Union for having had “concentration camps” and the second post from the user removed for criticizing China for also having “concentration camps”. Did the USSR have concentration camps? The first result that uses that term when I searched was literally the CIA website, and when you read the historical document there, it is clear that they are calling the gulags (prisons) “concentration camps”. Regarding China having those (presumably referring to the Uyghurs in Xinjiang), Wikipedia itself calls them internment camps, similar to the Japanese internment camps in the US during World War II. Meanwhile, cm0002 complains about a comment using the term “shitlib”, which is a criticism of someone’s political philosophy, not being removed. The two are not equivalent.
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Censoring when users call out propaganda - https://lemmy.world/post/32776038 | https://lemmy.world/post/33416433 | https://lemmy.world/post/34051329 | https://lemmy.world/post/35919522 - Debatable. At least some of the removed comments seem to be purely anti-Russia (“Fuck russia!”). The others seem debatable on the basis that other instances’ admins do the same or worse.
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Discussing winnie the pooh and/or the negatives of china is a 30 day ban - https://lemmy.world/post/35374967 - Debatable. This is pretty weaksauce to use as a reason to defederate one of the top Lemmy instances.
Davel - .ml admin
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Spreading anti-ukraine Russian propaganda - https://lemmy.world/post/34655572 - Misinformation. The article they’re complaining about literally links to documents on the CIA’s own website discussing their 1957 plans. Is it “Russian propaganda” to discuss historical facts?
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General negative sentiment to other instances who haven’t “seen the way” yet - https://lemmy.world/post/27426510 - I don’t even understand this one, plus again no link to original thread for context.
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“See! nobody died IN Tiananmen Square, just AROUND it, so it doesn’t count!!” - https://lemmy.world/post/30673342 - Distortion. No link to original thread for context, no evidence that they wrote what is “quoted”.
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Response to a valid report of “NK is actually good” as propaganda/misinfo https://lemmy.world/post/32627834 - Distortion and debatable. Once again, not actual quote and no link to thread for context. The meme itself is obviously shitposting, FFS.
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Removal of a credible article that was on the Uyghur genocide - https://lemmy.world/post/33205310 - Debatable. The mod removed a story that they saw as bigoted, possibly because of xenophobia. No link to original article or the cross-posted thread.
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It’s totally fine when Russia kills woman and children, war is war after all - https://lemmy.world/post/33224299 - Distortion. First, no link to thread for context. Second, they are distorting what was said. The actual quote: “Still not a genocide. There is no war where women, children, and other civilians don’t end up getting killed.”
Nutomic - 2nd in command Lemmy Dev
- Their continued transphobia - https://lemmy.world/post/29222558 - Debatable. No link to thread for context, and they were contrite in the screenshots.
General Tankie user behaviour [note: this is about random users of lemmy.ml]
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“Propaganda is good actually” - https://lemmy.world/post/36162233 - Distortion and debatable. No link to thread for context. Partial quote taking it out of context. The actual full quote in the screenshot: “Anyone pushing their views is propaganda. Propaganda isn’t always a bad thing, propaganda can be good, like antifascist or pro-communist propaganda, or it can be bad, like fascist propaganda.”
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“The China censorship tool isnt actually censorship! And if it is, it’s actually a good thing a state has that much power!” https://lemmy.world/post/30010789 - Distortion. Again no link to thread for context, plus no indication that what they claim to be a direct “quote” was actually written by the person. Besides, this is a random user linking to a YouTube video.
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Rooting for Russia in the Russia-Ukraine war https://lemmy.world/post/29274763 - Distorion. No link to original thread for context, and screenshot does not say what this item claims.
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Spreading Russia talking points like the Ukraine invasion just being a “negotiating tactic” https://lemmy.world/post/27012640 - Distortion. No link to original thread for context. The article in the screenshot claims “Not enough to conquer Ukraine, the invading force was sufficient to persuade Ukraine to the negotiating table.” That is not saying that they invaded only to bring Ukraine to the negotiating table, but that Ukraine came to the negotiating table as a result of the invasion. Different meanings.
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Biden is worse than Trump - https://lemmy.world/post/33631617 - Distortion. No link to original thread for context. What was actually written by a random user on the screenshot: “I’d argue Biden is worse. Trump is honest about being a terrible person. Biden pretends to be good.”
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Uyghur Genocide denialism - https://lemmy.world/post/33873969 - Distortion. No link to original thread for context. Not an accurate summation of what was said.
I reserve the right to edit this post to clarify points and/or add additional thoughts.
If you have the chance, travel. You’ll notice a distinct lack of Westerners standing around and cracking the whip most places. If anything, they’re building wells and handing out vaccines.
It’s arguably the strongest faction, although China’s also up there. But, there’s still plenty of sovereignty to go around.
Oh, I’ve traveled plenty and lived in more than one country. You seriously believe that there are more Westerners building wells and handing out vaccines around the world than there are trying to control other countries militarily and economically in order to extract as much wealth from them as they can? If you do believe that, I’m not sure that we will get anywhere with our discussion.
China’s barely getting started. Although they are very strong economically, they pale in comparison in terms of projecting military force or trying to control and manipulate other countries. I just heard a couple days ago that just the US has over 700 military installations across over 80 countries, while China has like 2 or 3. Also, the US has been involved in overthrowing dozens and dozens of governments around the world since World War II, many of them democratically elected.
When China becomes the 800-pound gorilla and shows the intent to subjugate the entire world, I will be glad to argue against them instead. I’m not inherently for China or Russia or anyone else blindly. I at least try to judge countries just like I judge people, based on their actions and nothing else.
More in terms of what? TBF I’m from a relief work background, but it seems to me that most Western institution don’t care enough to send people at all. We colonised, we left, we’re sorry but not that much. If there’s something we want local middlemen are cheaper.
If you go by money you’re probably right, although I’d question if extraction is really the goal - Afghanistan had nothing we wanted other than Osama, and then not even that. (Although the French seem to be up to no good sometimes)
That includes the period where black people literally couldn’t vote. Don’t you think the West has changed?
To pick an example on this side of the Cold War, obviously the US and a few select friends fucked up Iraq for no reason, but then again lots of people fucked up each other within the non-Western world. Russia is doing a whole lot of that right now.
The West at least cares about human rights and democracy in the abstract. And, at this moment in history, anyone else that does is probably friendly with the West. Isn’t that worth something, if our actions are, at worst, just as bad?
More in terms of numbers of people and money. I think the West still cares about their colonies and neo-colonies a lot. Consider the number of Western military bases around the world, plus the number of intelligence analysts and operatives from every Western country still actively trying to control and manipulate large portions of the world, plus Western corporations with large presences around the world, still extracting wealth to this day. I agree that much of it is outsourced to local middlemen, but I feel that there’s still much more people applied to these ulterior motives than toward legitimately helping the world.
I think Afghanistan was a rare exception because of Osama, like you said. Most other Western interventions around the world are for extracting oil, minerals, heck, even fruit.
With regard to foreign policy? I really don’t think the West has changed much. The US, UK, and other Western countries are still interfering with other countries to this day, with no legitimate reason to do so.
Compare the Wikipedia lists of foreign interventions by the US, France, China, and Russia sometime. It’s not even a race. The West has lapped the other powers while they were getting started out of the gate.
I think we have finally arrived at the crux of the issue. The West cares about human rights and democracy mostly for propaganda and as vehicles to expand their power and interfere with other countries. The West has overthrown democratically-elected governments and installed human-rights violating dictators plenty of times, up until recently, and will continue to do so while they can. For all of Russia’s and China’s internal ills, and I know there are a lot of them, they pale in comparison to the West in terms of the ills that they have brought upon the rest of the world outside their borders.
Not as much as you’d think, honestly.
Western wealth comes from other Western wealth, for the most part. Solid institutions, high education rates and lots of capital, which allows all kinds of complicated industries to exist that don’t elsewhere. That got started on colonialism and slavery, but it doesn’t need it to exist now.
For things like resources, there are corrupt deals that get funneled through places like Saychelles, but if you look at the actual savings that come out of it on the Western end it’s like pennies. They’re really screwing the global poor for nothing. Meanwhile, the low-end manufacturing jobs are popular because they tend to pay better than anything else available, and are arguably lighter work than going out in the fields; nobody’s really losing there.
I’m also involved in politics. There’s legit ideology there, just like there was legit ideology in the Soviet Union.
Although the far right is a different beast, obviously. These days the US is a lot like a second China, from a Canadian perspective.
What are you thinking of there? I can’t really come up with anything past the 80’s. Some leaders will blame the West for their own domestic protesters, but it’s always BS. If the US couldn’t find one guy for that long they certainly can’t whip up an entire nation.
To the rest, I’ll say we both know the earlier history, and I’d probably agree the West needs taking down a peg circa 1920. The Cold War is a bit murkier, because the USSR liked a good puppet or intervention as well.
Okay, I don’t have numbers to back up my claim, but the strong impression I have is that any country that tries to implement any government system the US doesn’t like or especially if they try to nationalize some industry or make their markets or their resources more difficult for American companies to access get swiftly overthrown, either overtly or covertly. The only reason to take a step like that would be if those companies had a sweeheart deal in the first place, i.e., wealth extraction.
Sure, I don’t doubt that many people who get into for instance the State Department have legit ideology. But the fact remains that the foreign policy of the US has remained fairly stable across multiple administrations from both parties, which essentially amounts to saying “promoting freedom and democracy” but in actuality promoting expanding military power around the world and expanding economic power as a result of that military presence at just about any cost.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States and https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/united-states-involvement-in-other-countries
Those are only the ones that we know about, which is very likely a fraction of the recent ones because most of this stuff is secret and will continue to be so for 50 years. I don’t agree at all that it’s always BS. If you’re talking about Bin Laden, that’s a completely different kind of case that’s unrelated to intelligence efforts to manipulate other countries and also because as far as I know the US didn’t have any presence in Afghanistan before 9/11.
US-friendly governments keep coming to power in different places, especially in Latin America, and often under contentious circumstances. Do you think that that keeps happening because the people of those countries love the US? I would be more inclined to believe that the CIA was involved in overthrowing governments when those governments claim that than not. Because it’s happened dozens and dozens of times in the last 80 years. There’s a strong pattern there, almost like a habit.
Here’s a good quote from that Wikipedia article:
My sense of the Cold War examples is that they happened in places that were on a kind of knife’s edge already. Like Chile - there was an existing underfunded, previously influential and endogamous military that didn’t need to much encouragement to take down Allende, electoral mandate be damned. They managed to gain influence across a lot of Latin America at the time, but there’s no comparable place now. In modern places like with unstable governments, the US has been losing ground this decade, as opposed to running the show.
If the US was secretly replacing otherwise-stable governments all over the world, it would take vast numbers of people all over and be much too hard to perfectly to cover up. France’s program in north Africa ended up an open secret, for example. You don’t need it to explain anything either; so, it’s not supported by Occam’s razor. And obviously, how could I falsify that idea? This is when it starts feeling like arguing against a conspiracy theory. Every thing you can say against it gets twisted into evidence for a successful coverup.
There’s been open interventions like Iraq and Libya, and legitimate controversy about them, but neither of those guys were remotely elected (which is what I was asking about). Intervening in the sense of throwing their weight around in lesser ways definitely happens, both in secret and in open, but China is also notorious for it, and has even taken a couple swings at Canada deep in the US sphere.
My point there was just that a lot of the decision makers believe they’re doing something noble (and the rest just want to get re-elected). At least in my country, which is culturally very close to the US, foreign policy isn’t a deliberately self-serving enterprise. (Although the fascist/“far-right populist” movement obviously goes in exactly that direction, and claims it’s a virtue)
The first example I was thinking of there is Venezuela. Conditions in the nation are really bad, there’s been mass migration out of it, and it’s not hard to find a Venezuelan that hates Maduro and friends. He can say it’s the CIA planting people, but even if you agree that none of the situation is actually his fault, it’s not the CIA - people do blame the current government. Same story during the Arab Spring. Really, dictators will usually say an enemy manufactured any civil unrest, and the US is the obvious choice for some of them. Others blame local rivals, and historically Jews were popular.
Also, Maduro is still in charge of Venezuela, which goes back to the knife’s edge thing. The US appears to be gearing up for an open armed invasion to dislodge him, because just the considerable public support for the opposition and whatever clandestine programs weren’t enough.
Interesting, I might have to read that. In my head the banana republic coups worked like half the time, but maybe that’s just because nobody talks about the failed ones.