Note to the haters: if you threaten me like you apparently threatened the poster of the other thread complaining about cm0002’s multiple accounts which caused them to delete their post and their account and leave Lemmy, I will report you and repost screenshots of your threats publicly. If you act too egregiously, I will report you to law enforcement and/or my lawyer. I have legal insurance and am willing to use it. Be civil and let us have a civilized discussion.
I had noticed that cm0002 was a high-volume poster on Lemmy a while ago. After they cross-posted a few of my posts from lemmy.ml communities to other communities on other instances, I asked them about their motivation for doing this. They are open and public about their desire to draw traffic away from lemmy.ml and support away from Lemmy devs because they think that “tankies” are going to destroy the Threadiverse. I was having a decent, amicable discussion with them on direct messages, but as soon as I expressed that I was sympathetic to some of the political views of the so-called “tankies”, I never got a reply.
Then the whole post about them creating accounts on pretty much every Threadiverse instance came up just yesterday (https://lemmy.sdf.org/post/45730651). While some people defended this type of activity as not being ban-evasion because they are not trying to hide being the same user, I feel that if nothing else, this makes it more difficult for moderators to review a user’s posting history to spot a pattern of bad behavior. If someone reports one of the (dozens? hundreds?) of cm0002 accounts, a mod may see only a few posts from the reported account and not get a full picture of this user.
Finally, I started looking into their one-person crusade against Lemmy devs, lemmy.ml, and “tankies”. I started looking at their claims more closely and didn’t like what I saw. To me it seems like they are making many distorted or debatable claims and spamming the Threadiverse with these. I read their “megathread” (https://sh.itjust.works/post/37226752) of supposed evidence that the Lemmy devs, lemmy.ml, and “tankies” are bad, and think the whole thing is lame, flawed, and dangerous:
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First, notice that the majority of posts that they link contain only what they would like you to see, and not a link to the original thread where one would be able evaluate the context for what was said.
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Second, notice that even where screenshots are provided, what the list item claims was said is most often not what was actually said. In other words, distortions. Specifically, most of the items that are claimed to be direct quotes (based on the quote marks around them) don’t at all appear to be actual quotes. I’m not a lawyer, but I would think that in many jurisdictions this would be grounds for a libel lawsuit.
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Third, most of the items that are not outright distortions are either exaggerations or debatable.
I personally feel that this crusade is more damaging to the Threadiverse than anything that they have complained about. I’ve been tired for a while of all the whining that I see here about “tankies” (Tankie Derangement Syndrome?), but have been holding my tongue. All this stuff from cm0002 is finally driving me to respond. Look, it’s fine to have the beliefs of a liberal, conservative, MAGA, loyal supporter of the United States’ imperial project, or a “tankie”. Live and let live. Learn to accept that people who think differently from you may have legitimate and valid reasons for thinking that way, as much as you may disagree (except fascists). I wish people would learn to agree to disagree after a discussion reaches a certain point where it becomes clear that it’s no longer productive. What’s not fine is to relentlessly target and persecute other people and other instances (again, except fascists). This is why I call this a crusade, because it’s nearly religious in nature. These people and instances haven’t committed any crime. Threadiverse visitors don’t deserve to be bombarded with all the whining and complaining that we often see. For all the complaining that I see about “Russian/Chinese bots”, I sometimes wonder if many of the complainers aren’t either intelligence or corporate agents trying to destabilize the Threadiverse.
My proposal: If nothing else comes out of this, I think that it would be beneficial to the Threadiverse if all instances added rules against disparaging, targeting, and persecuting other instances and users of other instances in general, especially if using false claims that border on libel, if they don’t already have such a rule. If we want to see the Threadiverse be sustainable as a Reddit alternative in the long term, I think that this would be a useful step contributing to that.
Another thing: I think that most instances defederating the so-called “tankie triad” (hexbear.net, lemmygrad.ml and lemmy.ml) is stupid to start with and damaging to the health of Lemmy and the Threadiverse (Lemmy/Mbin/Piefed), considering that at least Lemmy (and I imagine the others too) now allows users to block entire instances and allows admins to make this user-level block the default for new users. My instance, lemmy.zip, takes this default user-level block approach (for hexbear and lemmygrad) and I think that it’s a reasonable way to handle any concerns about the “triad”.
Anyway, I decided to look through cm0002’s “megathread” (https://sh.itjust.works/post/37226752) that they keep spamming and make comments showing how just about every item on the list is flawed, in my opinion. I only looked through the supposed “noteworthy selection” since those have their comments about the item on the main list. I suspect that most people wouldn’t look past that list and take it at face value. Note that most of them seem to indicate either problems with reading comprehension, malicious distortions, or lame complaints about random internet comments. There is no point in debating the items below with me. It’s fine to debate the items above with me. Like I said above, learn to accept that people may think differently than you do and learn to agree to disagree.
Dessalines - Head .ml admin - Head Lemmy Dev
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“Slava Ukraini” is considered a “Fascist slogan” - https://lemmy.world/post/36065538 - Debatable. It has a history of use by fascists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava_Ukraini
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“NK is actually good, and anything counter to that is Western LIES” - https://lemmy.world/post/31595035 - Distortion. Note the quotes, making this appear to be a direct quote, whereas Dessalines doesn’t appear to have written the quoted text on this linked thread.
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“The BBC is not a credible news source” - https://lemmy.world/post/35824465 - Debatable. First, it’s a partial quote with no link to the original thread to get the context of the comment. Second, not credible is perhaps exaggerating a bit, but BBC news earns plenty of valid criticisms about bias. Here’s a collection of many of the criticisms: https://iea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/BBC Bias Chp 3.pdf
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Showing support for Ukraine on .ml is worthy of a site ban - https://lemmy.world/post/32775563 - Distortion, debatable, and exaggeration. First, the comment used the slogan from item 1. Second, also note that it was a 30 day ban, which the lemmy.ml code of conduct appears to call a “kick” as opposed to a permanent ban.
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Open declaration of support for Russia - https://lemmy.world/post/27352415 - Distortion and debatable. Even though from what I’ve seen in the past I believe that Dessalines possibly supports Russia, that is not what the posted chart shows. The chart is not unconditionally supporting Russia. It’s making the claim that if a person supports Russia (in the Russia-Ukraine conflict) AND Palestine (in the Israel-Palestine conflict), it means they "fully understands the core of international geopolitics, while if they support Russia AND Israel, they believe in “Social Darwinism” (i.e., the discredited idea that stronger countries are always right). In other words, the chart is absolutely not unconditionally supporting Russia.
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"Don’t worry guys, the Uyghur Genocide was REALLY just birth control! - https://lemmy.world/post/30580167 - Distortion. Again a completely fake quote and again no link to original thread for context.
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Censoring criticism of China while allowing fellow “in-crowd” user “concentration camps were just reeducation camps and weren’t that bad” misinfo to remain - https://lemmy.world/post/26985447 - Distortion and Debatable. The first comment that was removed seemed to be criticizing the Soviet Union for having had “concentration camps” and the second post from the user removed for criticizing China for also having “concentration camps”. Did the USSR have concentration camps? The first result that uses that term when I searched was literally the CIA website, and when you read the historical document there, it is clear that they are calling the gulags (prisons) “concentration camps”. Regarding China having those (presumably referring to the Uyghurs in Xinjiang), Wikipedia itself calls them internment camps, similar to the Japanese internment camps in the US during World War II. Meanwhile, cm0002 complains about a comment using the term “shitlib”, which is a criticism of someone’s political philosophy, not being removed. The two are not equivalent.
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Censoring when users call out propaganda - https://lemmy.world/post/32776038 | https://lemmy.world/post/33416433 | https://lemmy.world/post/34051329 | https://lemmy.world/post/35919522 - Debatable. At least some of the removed comments seem to be purely anti-Russia (“Fuck russia!”). The others seem debatable on the basis that other instances’ admins do the same or worse.
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Discussing winnie the pooh and/or the negatives of china is a 30 day ban - https://lemmy.world/post/35374967 - Debatable. This is pretty weaksauce to use as a reason to defederate one of the top Lemmy instances.
Davel - .ml admin
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Spreading anti-ukraine Russian propaganda - https://lemmy.world/post/34655572 - Misinformation. The article they’re complaining about literally links to documents on the CIA’s own website discussing their 1957 plans. Is it “Russian propaganda” to discuss historical facts?
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General negative sentiment to other instances who haven’t “seen the way” yet - https://lemmy.world/post/27426510 - I don’t even understand this one, plus again no link to original thread for context.
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“See! nobody died IN Tiananmen Square, just AROUND it, so it doesn’t count!!” - https://lemmy.world/post/30673342 - Distortion. No link to original thread for context, no evidence that they wrote what is “quoted”.
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Response to a valid report of “NK is actually good” as propaganda/misinfo https://lemmy.world/post/32627834 - Distortion and debatable. Once again, not actual quote and no link to thread for context. The meme itself is obviously shitposting, FFS.
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Removal of a credible article that was on the Uyghur genocide - https://lemmy.world/post/33205310 - Debatable. The mod removed a story that they saw as bigoted, possibly because of xenophobia. No link to original article or the cross-posted thread.
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It’s totally fine when Russia kills woman and children, war is war after all - https://lemmy.world/post/33224299 - Distortion. First, no link to thread for context. Second, they are distorting what was said. The actual quote: “Still not a genocide. There is no war where women, children, and other civilians don’t end up getting killed.”
Nutomic - 2nd in command Lemmy Dev
- Their continued transphobia - https://lemmy.world/post/29222558 - Debatable. No link to thread for context, and they were contrite in the screenshots.
General Tankie user behaviour [note: this is about random users of lemmy.ml]
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“Propaganda is good actually” - https://lemmy.world/post/36162233 - Distortion and debatable. No link to thread for context. Partial quote taking it out of context. The actual full quote in the screenshot: “Anyone pushing their views is propaganda. Propaganda isn’t always a bad thing, propaganda can be good, like antifascist or pro-communist propaganda, or it can be bad, like fascist propaganda.”
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“The China censorship tool isnt actually censorship! And if it is, it’s actually a good thing a state has that much power!” https://lemmy.world/post/30010789 - Distortion. Again no link to thread for context, plus no indication that what they claim to be a direct “quote” was actually written by the person. Besides, this is a random user linking to a YouTube video.
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Rooting for Russia in the Russia-Ukraine war https://lemmy.world/post/29274763 - Distorion. No link to original thread for context, and screenshot does not say what this item claims.
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Spreading Russia talking points like the Ukraine invasion just being a “negotiating tactic” https://lemmy.world/post/27012640 - Distortion. No link to original thread for context. The article in the screenshot claims “Not enough to conquer Ukraine, the invading force was sufficient to persuade Ukraine to the negotiating table.” That is not saying that they invaded only to bring Ukraine to the negotiating table, but that Ukraine came to the negotiating table as a result of the invasion. Different meanings.
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Biden is worse than Trump - https://lemmy.world/post/33631617 - Distortion. No link to original thread for context. What was actually written by a random user on the screenshot: “I’d argue Biden is worse. Trump is honest about being a terrible person. Biden pretends to be good.”
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Uyghur Genocide denialism - https://lemmy.world/post/33873969 - Distortion. No link to original thread for context. Not an accurate summation of what was said.
I reserve the right to edit this post to clarify points and/or add additional thoughts.
Do you evidence that this is really the case? Do you think that it could perhaps be your personal perspective?
Enough of personal perspective to be banned for mentions of things they don’t like, or comments that can be interpreted in a myriad ways. Mods there consciously want people to fall in line. Fuck them, they are worthless idiots.
Not even talking about the surrealistic feeling of some fat American leftist who can’t read in Russian telling you sitting in walking distance from Gorky Park how you’re all wrong and superficial on bloody USSR. And they don’t get any ideas when you tell them that.
Ok, fair enough, thanks for providing your perspective, but do you think that the proper way to address that is for everyone to defederate an instance that has a lot of good non-political content or for people who are bothered by the mods in political discussions there to block the instance or the problematic communities where the mods exercise a heavy hand?
I think talking about federated services is different from talking about federated data. In Lemmy they are the same, which is why it’s not a good architecture. In Usenet they were not the same, but outside of mammoth technology there’s no similar solution.
Think about bittorrent trackers. They do serve the job of helping peers find each other. But nothing is tied to them, mostly, outside of many closed ones.
Lemmy instances also provide storage and relay services, functionally.
All of these can be separate, and user identities can be untied from instances of some service.
Trackers help you find relays and storage nodes serving specific users and groups. User and group identities are cryptographic (hope so, but one can have separate authentication services, why the hell not ; then it may be analogous to Lemmy instances in regards to bans and moderation).
Doing that isn’t easy, though. But I suppose a competent programmer can implement a tracker (simplest by far - announce, clear, request and storage, the tracker just has to check signatures if identity is, say, hash of public key), a storage service (an object storage with authentication, similar to previous, but perhaps paid with additional registration for that identity), a relay (not much more complex than a toy chat server, but perhaps similar to storage service) and a client application (that one is complex, but not too much, because all the logic of finding stuff by trackers and assembling\replaying group\user\post states is on the client) in not too horrible time.
OK, I’ve started writing a prototype for that in an TCL/Tk recently, lost willpower (ASD, BAD, bad sleep, bad food habits) after adding replays and before adding networking, and when thinking about convenience of integration with ready libraries and such, suspect C or C++ from the beginning would be easier. Bitwise operations not being PITA as a bonus.
Thanks, there’s an interesting technical discussion to be had about how to address these issues with Lemmy and the Fediverse in general. I’m not much of an actual programmer although I’ve programmed a lot in school over the years. With that caveat, nowadays I would be inclined to only start brand new coding projects using memory-safe languages. There are so many wonderful ones to choose from nowadays that are not only more secure but also more productive, and most of them can use C and C++ libraries.
Getting back to my previous message though, given the two choices that are currently available, defederate from an instance that may have some issues in some of their communities, or let users decide whether to block them, which one would you chose?
The latter.
Thanks. I think that out of those two, that’s a better option too. Good luck with your development of alternatives though. It could be useful!
As I have said Im not into communism and have not been banned from the whole instance so far. Honestly I don’t find being banned as all that bad of a thing. I have often compared the federation to going out in meatspace, at least in the way I want to interact with it. Being banned just means that space is not for me and I will go hang someplace else. Honestly I find having posts removed as more insulting. One reason I have the interactions I did with cm0002 is because someone at a .world instance removed a post I did of my daily comic and for me that was just totally unacceptable so I started posting the .ml equivalent community instead.
Fair enough, thanks.