I respect people’s right to use apple products, but please stop asserting “privacy”, big corps doesn’t give a shit.
I use an iPhone simply because I refuse to use google services any longer, not because I’m delusional about apple caring about privacy.
I’ll use smoke signals
No joke, you can use a bright lamp and a shutter to send morse code. If you layer One-Time-Pad encryption on top of it, voila, you get secure, offgrid communications.
Comparatively they are better. Its a duopoly in terms of mobile OSs and one is made by a company who mines data and sells ads as its core. The other sells hardware and subscriptions.
I use linux and I wish for a full featured marketable linux phone someday that can compete but with privacy they absolutely beat google.
I have never owned an iphone amd I am currently debating on getting a pixel to move to gOS.
I’m all for linux, I miss the market before iPhone domination. Weird ass symbian phones, windows phones, nokia taco phones, there was all sorts of stuff. I wish we could have a market like that with lots of diverse phones that all run different operating systems. I also wish we could step away from app stores and we could just start building websites again, phones are fast enough now
The problem is not with Android its with Google But apparently android is from Google even though its open source. Sure, linux phones are nice but they are nowhere near stable.
The problem is we do everything with mobile phones now even banking and security is a big lead here The Banking apps may need to make sure each and every linux phones are secure and may not have any loopholes Which is tedious Even installing a custom rom can hinder the default security sometimes. If any problems arise neither linux phones nor banks can give any warranty As of now android is more secure and stable and theres a lot of time ahead of linux phones to succeed
It’s really funny seeing people who defend capitalism trying to avoid capitalism problems with individual actions instead of organizing themselves and fighting for the interest of their own class
Thia guy i know to a tee. He’ll defend capitalism to the death and say how the left is evil and anarchy capitalism is the only way.
Idiot. And he pitches about everything in life capitalism causes. I point this out and he says well yeah but thats just bad capitalism not good capitalism. Also he loves fElon, so there’s that.
I’d LOVE to know how many of the comments here were made on an iPhone.
I’m so glad someone else is seeing this.
Watching people say “I’ll just use an iphone because android is too locked down” really reinforces my opinion of the average person.
Listen. I’ll be the first to pirate and the first to ditch giving companies like Amazon or Google my money.
But I draw the line at my phone. I tried GrapheneOS and had so many issues with things like banking that it’s just not viable for most people.
I love my iPhone for what I use it for and it works as intended. I listened to yall and removed windows for Linux and that was a shit show too. Nvidia drivers ugh. WiFi just stopping etc. easier to use windows to load the one app of stream I use and do some dev work.
I understand. When my Win10 PC was approaching End Of Life, I switched to Linux instead of buying a new computer. I’m fairly familiar with Linux since all my servers are Debian, and it’s been great. I tried three distros and they all were unstable due to my hardware. When I asked what I should do, I was told I should buy a new computer that was compatible with Linux. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I’m using Ubuntu now on that computer, and it’s more stable, but I’ve still had to use a boot drive to roll back TimeShift after a hard crash.
And this is my man issue. Time. Time is precious and I don’t want headaches where I don’t need them. That is phone and pc.
Sure I’ll make life harder and more expensive by not shopping at massive companies. Or not using Netflix or Disney so I have to shop elsewhere and build a media server, on Linux, but most people just want to turn on a pc open stream and play Factorio.
Honestly? Skill issue.
It takes some time and effort to get up to speed on community driven operating systems but it’s a much happier life once you do.
I’m a software engineer mate. It’s not a skill issue, it’s a time issue. The last thing I want when I’ve finished debugging for clients is to come home and debug my own machine or phone.
Maybe it’s a young man’s game. I have the same issue with my media server, I was happy to sink a few weeks into setting it up but it fills me with dread that something goes down and I need to spend more time fixing things. But I’ll do it with piracy as I see the benefit of not giving money to streaming services.
Edit: all I want from this community is a little nuance in that Linux or Privacy centric phones are not for everybody and they should respect others peoples choices. I’d rather spend my time rock climbing and running these days than sat near a computer outside of work. Although it’s winter coming so I game more then.
I’m also a SWE and pretty old. I also spend time outside hiking and rock climbing.
I run Linux on all my machines aside from a couple macs but Linux is my daily driver.
It doesn’t have to be a hobby.
Its been like 5+ years since I’ve run into a major problem that couldn’t be resolved quickly. I have much more serious problems trying to use windows at this point.
If it’s not a skill issue, it’s a mindset issue.
To me, using an OS that isn’t hostile and actively making itself worse for profit is worth the time investment.
It helps a lot to use popular, well supported distros like Mint or Fedora but even on Arch basically every problem I have is my own fault for breaking something.
I literally told you it’s a time issue.
Listen if that’s the hill you want to die on then crack on pal, but I’m just saying it’s not for everybody.
In the grand scheme of things I’ve more important things I can channel by hatred of the current world than on what Operating System I use. Every minute I spend debugging is a minute I’m not doing something else.
For what it’s worth it was Fedora that I tried and it sucked, as I said. The WiFi would just die randomly and even if it takes 5 mins to fix ive never had to do that on windows. It’s literally plug and play.
I respect where you’re coming from, But the mentality of Linux users to say “skill issue” in these situations is the #1 reason why Linux isn’t more adopted. Is it a skill issue on the user’s end or is it a skill issue on the Linux developers’ end? Maybe they should make more automatically functional out of the box software. Doesn’t feel too nice to be told that does it?
Not everyone has time to become skilled in computing. Additionally, Linux users are so deep in the computing rabbit hole that they don’t even appreciate how deep in it they really are. What strikes them as basic or fundamental is really confusing for a lot of people.
It is not acceptable to just blame the user and say that the problem is that the user is a fool. That could maybe be a reasonable standpoint if 99% of people were using the software without issue, but we all know that isn’t the case with Linux.
Someone wants to boot up their computer and get on Wi-Fi and play games with their updated drivers. Windows provides that out of the box, without them needing to do anything. That is factually a better experience than needing to screw around reading a bunch of guides and forums and running commands that you don’t understand for potentially multiple hours. Blaming that on the user just means that the users continue to have a bad experience. If that’s the view the community wants to take, fine - But then don’t complain when the majority of people don’t want to use your thing.
Exactly this.
HeThey told me, a software engineer, it’s a skill issue. For me it’s a time issue. Time is precious, in fact my most precious asset and gone are my days of playing with operating systems. I just want to load steam and play Factorio.The other thing these people don’t realise is a lot of engineers are using windows at work too. Our tiny company of engineers is all in on Windows and does exactly what we want. I’d prefer Mac but windows is fine.
I’m in the same boat. That said I was able to play Factorio on steam out of the box with Bazzite on my laptop. Other things were not as straightforward though so I’m still not daily driving it.
People are saying this?
Are they idiots?
Someone actually said that to me the other day. (I am no longer friends with that person). I think its because people (especially americans) see that almost everyone is using iPhone so their tiny social media influenced brains say “If EveRy oNe USes ipHonE it beTteR”. Meanwhile us sensible people just sit here internally screaming.
Bizarre thing to end a friendship over?
We weren’t the closest friends, and we fought too much anyways.
iPhone users
Yes
I hate the term sideloading. It’s a made-up propaganda word to make it seem scary or wrong to install software on your device. All in the name of corporate profits.
It’s like “jaywalking” oooh oh no don’t “jay” walk, don’t “side” load; conform to our business machines! Your natural existence and free movements are an inconvenience to us therefore you have to change.
Or whatever bullshit–however they couch it.
Very good point!
Both cars and smartphones are products that actively exploit us, increasingly lock themselves down with black box hardware and software, and have societal dependence practically enforced by law at this point.
I want a future where they’re cool again, and not 100% necessary for day to day existence.
Yea, who are google and apple to tell us what to do with OUR devices that WE OWN anyways?
I will never buy a smartphone(or a computer) that I can’t replace the stock OS on, because the transaction for me and the device maker should end when I buy their device, period.
The entire business model of selling me a device only to then extract the maximum possible amount of data points, sell that data to fuck-knows-who(compromising my privacy, and possibly safety), and maximizing targeted ads to attempt to manipulate me is beyond absurd.
Ironically I own a Google device, but only to use an operating system that respects me and my choices. If Google was just providing device trees for their new phones…
Due to our favourite kind of software (banking apps) I am unable to use another kind of operating system at this point.
Also I don’t sideload. I install software on a computer that I own, because I paid actual money for it.
GraphenenOs?
Exactly.
“Warning: If you unlock your phone, it might explode or you might become a terrorist. Also we won’t pay your money back even if there is faulty hardware because there is non zero chance you might have caused it while unlocking”
I like the term sideloading. It describes an installation method we don’t otherwise have a word for.
I’m loading a software package from the side – from a system running parallel to the target system.
I do hate the use of the term to try to demonize a completely standard practice. Like when using wget to request files from a fileserver was described as hacking.
Apple is kicking and screaming all the way on this side loading path.
As soon as Google got away with it, Apple will refer to Google and happily claim an even playfield and everyone is left holding the shortest stick.
There is no word called sideloding it’s called installing software
“Sideloading” means “defeating a walled garden to install software”
Yeah, you can go with a Linux phone but forget about:
- controlling any IOT device
- using any smart watch/sport trakcer
- Android Auto or any remote car features
- mobile banking
- authenticating at work
- buying public transport tickets from your phone
- using apps for boarding pass when flying
- charging your car at most public chargers
- using any type of digital ID or documents
If you’re already a luddite that’s awesome, you’re free to move to Linux phones. If you like modern tech and the convenience it gave us it will be really fucking sad to lose all of it because or corporate greed.
Agreed, but is a chicken and egg problem. People won’t use Linux because the apps they want don’t support it and apps won’t support it because most people don’t use Linux. Someone will have to cave in if we want to break this stupid proprietary duopoly.
The best way is freeing Android. Android should be the “Mobile Linux”. What should happen is that EU should ensure that people are allowed to side load and unlock bootloaders and that all apps are compatible with alternative ROMs. All dependencies on google play services should simply be made illegal and all apps should be fully compatible with AOSP.
If we can’t get this we will spend the next 10-15 years in mobile dark ages. Mobile Linux may never get enough tracking to be supported the way desktop Linux is.
I don’t think it’ll play out that way. Manufacturers aren’t going to ditch Google. Play Store and Google certification are too valuable for them. And for small developers, most of them rely on Google’s infrastructure. If the EU decides to take that away, only big players with resources could handle their own systems, which ironically makes things less open because indies get squeezed out.
If we skip the Play Services part, the EU might push for sideloading and more openness, but realistically Play Services will remain dominant simply because it’s the easiest and most convenient option for developers. So we’ll probably end up with a halfway solution: technically more open, but practically still dependent on Google.
If we really want change, proper GNU/Linux phones need to catch up or at least run Android apps (APKs) reliably. That alone would solve 70% of the problem. The remaining 30% comes down to infrastructure and right now Google Play Services is just too polished and convenient (especially for indies who don’t care about FOSS ideals) for devs to walk away from.
Manufacturers aren’t going to ditch Google. Play Store and Google certification are too valuable for them.
If legislation is made such that eg.: in the EU phones can not be registered in the cellular network unless they are open to both normal installation of apps (sIdElOaDiNg) and being able to fully install or remove Google Services, then Google will have to deal with who would want to work and pay to get a certification that effectively blocks you from selling and operating in one or more continents.
And such legislation would be not without precedent: open phones and custom ROMs are already suffering from it.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
I will admit I’m ignorant here. What do companies use Google Play Services for? I developed some Android app and I never had to rely on Google. I just used F-Droid. Other than play store for distribution, which services provided by Google would be so hard to replace?
Location services, geofencing, connectivity sign in, banking services… basically the walls of the garden
Someone will have to cave in if we want to break this stupid proprietary duopoly.
Honestly that’s not a chicken-and-egg problem. Only one party of the two in this example has the power to create or change apps, whereas people in this example, even if they would use Linux, they effectively are prevented from.
The “someone” who has to cave in is obvious.
I used to run an LTE-enabled nettop instead of a phone during the app-only craze, can’t get any worse than that. Recently removed bank apps, taxi, delivery, maps, youtube, email and all social media apps off my phone in favour of using websites instead. They’re still a bit of an afterthought compared to apps so the experience is a bit clunky, but the option is available for most things nowadays.
Some things yes. I don’t have any social media apps (not even lemmy) or YT but my car charger requires an app, my AC has an app I use from time to time, my Garmin GPS has an app, I have to use MS Authenticator at work, my car has an app and Android Auto and 90% of public car charges require an app. None of this has website alternative. Can I live without them? Well, not without work obviously and where I live electric car infrastructure is so tied to mobile phones I’m seriously considering just giving up and going back to a normal car.
Most of this i don’t use my phone for anyway. I’ll use my current android phone for the rest, if needed.
Still going to wait and see if the Eu makes a move, but i won’t go back to fascist enabling corps.
Yeah, sadly I don’t see a way around it other than having spare Android/iOS phone.
For some time GrapheneOS should work just fine but when Google kills it we’re fucked.
Don’t they have functioning Android app support now?
In theory yes but most non open source apps require google play services. Hard to tell how long those will work with waydroid and similar. Also running android apps this ways destroys battery apparently.
Yeah, I use lineage with microg…and it’s been tough… I had to deal with several government apps in order to start a new job and guess what? None of them work…I had to use my wife’s phone to get my new ID… I’m a teacher and I have to use government apps to deal with student’s absences…that Does not work either…basically anything that relys on Brazilian government app to authenticate something is not going to work. I tried to use the website…guess again…it does not work! One can’t export an ID from the website…I had been dealing with banking apps without much trouble…but this ID thing is terrible! How come you can only do stuff using an app and not using the website!?
Don’t feel bad. Nothing wrong with using an iPhone if you need to. The custom ROM world is janky at best, and it even requires two devices at some point.
The fact that there are only two operating systems and both are locked down is a major problem. Unless a company like Valve invests heavily in a linux phone it is unlikely to ever go mainstream enough for developer or device support.
We need governments and legislators to force these systems open. To enshrine the right to control the things you own and criminalize any attempt to curb people’s ownership or control. That is the first step. Once that’s in place, the environment for a third option to exist will be in place.
There are more than these 2, they are just ubiquitous.
Sailfish is another one, UBPorts, Danctnix, … They have no marketshare worth considering for companies so they lock their services down to the 2 big ones and everything else in their eyes is “unsupported” at best and “not secure” at worst.
Can I use my work shit on a Linux phone or custom Rom. Also what are my hardware options with those.
Linux phones aren’t quite there yet, and one of the big problems from what I understand is simply that the hardware is locked down. Firmware and drivers aren’t readily available, and so supporting handsets is just really hard.
How much money would be needed to build an open source linux phone from the ground up?
I would say that completely FOSS Linux OS won’t ever be as smooth experience as business solution. Jolla has developed SailfishOS which is mostly open decade now and it is quite stable. Also has android emulator where you can use most android apps, but not all. In my opinion we should support that as much as possible to have true alternative. Also EU should start supporting ita development
I don’t know if they’d even be up for it but at this point I think the best option would be Framework getting into it as theyre already trusted by the community.
But even if we get the hardware down there’s another issue - we need an open source, government approved, bank approved Wallet app. There’s only Google or Apple wallet to store important documents on Mobile at the moment. Frustratingly, some governments are using only those two as a source for national verification which is obviously a problem.
would it not be theoretically possible to run a virtual OS to use an app like that on a linux phone?
Yes, but that it can be temperamental and finicky. If you have a rooted phone currently you need to trick a different service called play protect into thinking that your device is kosher, so to speak; different updates from Google can and have broken the processes that have worked in the past.
Needless to say a solution needs to be robust, the possibility to not access your gov id because a private company changed a process and decides you don’t get to use the same loophole you’ve used till now isn’t great from a technical or security standpoint. I would imagine it’s even more frustrating for non-US citizens as their government is relying on a foreign company with a notably bad track record of keeping services available.
It’s not that such a technology is hard to make, it’s more about adoption. Even better than a particular product we could gather around would be a set of standards that the community could build various products around (so long as they meet those standards). That however feels unlikely from the current US administration and based on the EU’s recent GitHub proclamation on their age verification act.
I’m pretty sure there’s still products like that. I bought a PinePhone once upon a time.
If it’s designed for Android, not a phone using desktop Linux, but you can on a custom ROM which is probably a variant of AOSP.
Also what are my hardware options with those.
Incredibly specific and restrictive, do your homework carefully. Pixels are usually (always?) good, which is ironic, while certian manufacturers like Samsung are right out.
I found a model that works secondhand and I’m as happy as a pig in shit with it, FYI.
Yea, pixels don’t have an SD slot so that’s out.
Isn’t work supposed to provide you with a phone?
They don’t deem it necessary and it’s not really but it helps me to not be chained to my desk all day when I can check Teams and Email on the go.
I wish but then I’ve been told by manager bro that no one wants to carry around two phones
Apple does give a shit about privacy… in the same way that companies care about gay pride. Right now privacy is still a selling point for Apple compared to other companies. This is why they are still so loud about on device AI and pretty much silent when any of their features require cloud processing. But am under no illusions that will remain the case forever.
As far as “dumb phones” are concerned; they don’t exist anymore. It’s still a device with an OS, GPS (as required by the law that created the Amber Alert here in the US), and an Internet connection, that makes calls using VoLTE or similar. Most of the ones you can buy today run things like KaiOS which has an App Store and comes with Google Maps preinstalled.
If you want real privacy you need to disconnect from the Internet which pretty much means no phones at all now that everything is VoIP.
Apple has 2x very publicly resisted government demands for user data and campaigned against laws to institute backdoors into their software and services. They’re not perfect by any means but they are by far a lesser evil.
A fully capable Linux phone is the dream, but most people aren’t going to use one. For the majority of people, I would recommend the company that refused to listen to the US and EU about weakening the security of their products over the one with the business model of relying on advertising to you and selling your data.
Apple has 2x very publicly resisted government demands for user data and campaigned against laws to institute backdoors into their software and services.
Indeed.
They also immediately folded in China after being given the ultimatum of comply or die.
All it would take is Trump to give the same ultimatum…
Yeah I would expect the same of any company. They have to comply with the laws of the country they do business in. This same requirement compelled them to finally add USB-C to iPhones and allow alternate app stores.
I wouldn’t blame Google for doing the same, so I’m not going to blame Apple for it either. Do you actually expect any company their size to do any different?
To the extent they’re legally able to, Apple has absolutely resisted compromising their device security features to aid law enforcement.
Good thing Trump’s distracted by gold baubles.
And they have proven if the government makes a law requiring access they’ll do it. They have done it for China and Russia.
That’s literally any company though. If you want to legally operate in a certain country, you need to abide by the country’s laws. Sure, pirate FOSS projects could exist. But that’s not the kind of shit that will be sold in retail, because it would literally be illegal to sell.
This is like complaining that Japanese phones can’t disable the camera shutter sound. It’s because Japan regulated the shutter sound, because upskirting was a major issue. So phones legally sold in Japan are required to have the shutter sound permanently set at a high volume, even when the ringer is silenced. That isn’t the phone maker’s fault.
Apple campaigned against regulation like what you’re complaining about. It isn’t Apple’s fault that the regulation was passed anyways.
Well yeah they kinda have to at that point in order to continue conducting business in that country. What about this is specific to Apple?
Was giving literal gold to Donald Trump part of that campaign to save the users?
No that was Tim Apple kissing the ring to minimize tariffs. And it worked.
They just do that for brand optics. Because researchers found the apple privacy settings off/on made no difference to the packet of info sent to apple. Their privacy is a facade.
I can believe this. Apple loves to talk big about privacy but their source for it is “trust me bro.”
The issue in one of the cases (San Bernardino) had nothing to do with iCloud data, and everything to do with the data on the device itself. The FBI request was a backdoor into the device. Apple (rightly) refused to add a backdoor to access the phone.
You are referencing data that goes to Apple’s iCloud servers, which Apple was happy to provide because they held the encryption keys. Since then, they have enabled an E2E encryption feature for iCloud data.
I am happy to discuss Apple’s shortcomings, but let’s be clear on which ones we’re discussing
Its the don’t track privacy type settings where you opt out, research found it was a toggle button that did nothing.
They only tout privacy to gain market, they would sell us out for a dollar
Is this separate from Advanced Data Protection, which is E2E encrypted data on iCloud?
“Don’t track privacy type settings” isn’t very descriptive, so apologies if I’m sounding any way I’m just trying to be clear about what the complaint here is.
And to be clear, is this a privacy concern exclusive to Apple?
Totally unrelated to the E2E, I will have to search for it. It was a year or two ago. Apple claimed turning off the data collection kept your use private to you, but was just a lie, they collected all your data anyway.
And yes, its an IPhone setting not an android setting. Google is another issue.
Ok please let me know when you have more information I am very interested to know.
You’re saying the same thing as the top of the thread. All of this is for now. At some point it could be advantageous for Apple to stop resisting US demands. It is important to understand and prepare for that while also accepting, for now, Apple provides the most corporate privacy of the corporate privacy options in the US.
The three of us are in agreement.
Mostly agree except about disconnecting from the internet, classic SMS/voice calls aren’t any more private than VoIP.
Your best bet for location privacy is E2E encrypted services like Signal over wifi, plus MAC randomization and a VPN on untrusted networks. I’d say GrapheneOS is good enough for most people, but mobile Linux has also come a long way.
Encryption doesn’t stop them from knowing what tower you are attached to. Simply having a phone on you even with the GPS and WiFi off (or with the newer phones even the whole phone off) would still be enough to get your location to within a few hundred feet. The original iPhone used triangulation exclusively for location.
Honestly haven’t heard that one. I’ve only heard “I used android for freedom. If android is becoming a shitty apple, I’ll just use the better apple”
That’s sort of where I’m at right now to be honest. Google has removed or plan to remove basically everything that gave Android an edge over iOS. Meanwhile Apple, for all their flaws, has actually put out some pretty compelling offerings with the iPhone 17 line both hardware- and software-wise, and has made meaningful improvements in the realm of repairability and side-loading, albeit under regulatory pressure. At this point, it’s looking like going to be harder than I’d like to choose between the two when I go to replace my phone in 3-5 years - provided both companies stay on their current trajectories.
Here’s how I think about it:
Google’s business model involves advertising to you, tracking your activity, mining your data, and selling that information to other entities while also using it to advertise to you more. It’s their main profit-driver. You are the product.
Apple’s business model is to sell you the hardware, give you the software and make it (mostly) depend on the services to keep you locked in. You (the user) are not the product, their devices and services are.
Of the two, which is the lesser evil?
Normies are not going to fully convert to Linux phones and open-source software any time soon. In the meantime as far as privacy is concerned, Apple can do much worse and Google can do much better.
Apple’s transitioning to a services based company, which includes ad tech. They’re better than Google only for now. The enshittification of their OS’s has been ongoing, and will only get worse. macOS has had so many super user features removed, and so many iOS walled-garden regressions added.
I’m not going to argue this point, but am more interested in discussing issues they currently have than issues we think they’ll have eventually. If we’re gonna vilify a company let’s make sure we’re doing it based on stuff that’s actually happened so we know they deserve it.
To be fair, a lot of those features have been getting added back, a lot of walled-garden regressions removed as well. I guess this part is more subjective and based on your workflow. The feature churn itself is the only true constant.
That’s been my reason to switch. When Android 12 removed or hid a lot of the functionality and customization that I used daily on my Pixel 4a5g, I switched to an iPhone. It’s a shame I had to sell back my iphone 14 pro to my provider (due to the plan I had chosen), otherwise I’d have kept that one, but I’m currently running the 16 Pro, and intend to keep that for another 4 or 5 years.
