- cross-posted to:
- slop@hexbear.net
- cross-posted to:
- slop@hexbear.net
For many years, I’ve considered myself a fan of Emil Cioran. He says so many interesting things, chief among them (for me) is his concept of language being our true fatherland. This is a fascinating truism that has helped me shift my thoughts greatly over many years. I have overcome many internal definitions because of Cioran’s advice.
Many months ago, I bought the audiobook “A Short History of Decay” (“Précis de Décomposition”), and I’m just now getting the chance to hear it. As expected, this is a packed tome full of sharp quips and loaded thoughts; however, I find myself stuck on one lynchpin holding the first chapter together.
Cioran goes to brief lengths demonstrating the hostility of dogma and the history of societal destruction (banality and apocalypse). To support this, he makes the point that Nero and Tiberius were men who, rather than adherents to any particular dogma, became mere degenerates (decadents) who enjoyed torturing the latest losers. Cioran goes further, arguing that the true engineers manifesting social downfall are the self-appointed apostles of structure or anti-structure, not conmen.
That’s… a tough concept for me. One might assume by my use of complete sentences and my lack of Christian nationalism that I hold a deep hatred for Donald Trump. One would be correct in that assumption. I like to believe I hate that man with an overwhelming passion… but he is, in my estimation, a con man. According to Cioran, a man like him who holds nothing sacred cannot be an instrument of societal downfall.
Here’s a quote:
This leaves me with an apparent crossroads. Either I am wrong about Cioran’s wisdom, or Cioran is correct and I am wrong about Donald Trump. Of course, the argument could be made that the public constitutes its own persona writ large (much like a corporation with its own identity and rights). The democracy forms its own identity and has its own dogma, which a con man may manipulate for his own brief aims within our strange new world’s structure. That’s one view, but the fact remains that my impression of one of these men likely needs to change.
It frightens me, to think that Donald Trump actually DOES believe in a dogma which he determines to be the “right” way to live (that he is living an imitable life), and that this belief drives his actions.
RESPONSE
Cioran is a hard thinker to carry forward without friction, because his sharpness cuts in all directions, even (and especially) toward the people who admire him.
Let’s walk through this.
⚔️Cioran’s View on Dogma vs. Degeneracy
Cioran’s claim—roughly—that the con man, the decadent, the opportunist like Nero or Tiberius is not the true source of catastrophe, while dogmatic apostles of structure or anti-structure are, is a provocative way to separate evil born of belief from evil born of self-interest.
He seems to say: degenerates may torment, but they don’t organize ruin on the level that ideologues do. Ideologues engineer entire world-orders (utopian or apocalyptic), and that’s where real historical damage happens: when belief pretends to be salvation.
So to Cioran, Torquemada is more dangerous than Caligula.
(above) Juan de Torquemada of the Spanish Inquisition
(above) Gaius Caesar Augustus Germanicus a.k.a. Caligula
🐍 So… Where Does Trump Fall?
I feel—passionately and personally—that Donald Trump is a destructive force. I see him not just as a vulgar opportunist, but as a real danger to institutions, culture, and perhaps democracy itself. That suggests I’m seeing in Trump more than a con man—even if his background is thoroughly grift-driven.
So let’s test this:
- Possibility A: Trump is “just” a con man
This is closer to Cioran’s thesis. In this view, Trump is more like Tiberius: he exploits existing passions, he doesn’t invent or sincerely believe in a totalizing dogma. He is parasitic, not messianic. And therefore, the responsibility for collapse lies more with the believers who constructed a dogma around him—those who saw a savior, not a salesman.
In this reading, Trump is not “the true danger.” The danger is the dogma that grows around him—what others make of him.
- Possibility B: Trump believes in something
What if Trump does believe in something? Not necessarily a traditional ideology, but a dogma of self: that he is the rightful center of power, truth, success, survival. That his way is the only way. That enemies must be humiliated and facts bent to his advantage. That loyalty is moral, and dissent is treason. These are not fleshed-out political ideas—but they function as dogma in the Cioranian sense.
In this view, Trump is not merely a parasite. He becomes a carrier of a belief system—even if it is crude, narcissistic, and unexamined. And once others take this up as gospel (e.g. QAnon, “stop the steal,” “only Trump can fix it”), he becomes an apostle of a destructive anti-structure.
So Cioran’s thesis may still apply—just in a more flexible or modern sense.
🪞What Might Be Happening Emotionally
I have been emotionally invested in hating Trump as a villain for a full decade. I do not directly hate him because he is a fool. Philosophically, it’s harder to assign ultimate blame to someone who lacks belief, because Cioran’s vision of moral horror is reserved for true believers. That makes the con man weirdly “innocent” by comparison.
The moral vertigo of realizing that maybe the con man isn’t the root cause—we are, or rather, the systems and believers who elevate him are.
This does not necessarily imply the con man is empty; rather he may believe in himself with dogmatic ferocity. Maybe we’re seeing a new form of dogma—a hypermodern, selfie-mythology where personal branding is truth. That’s not quite what Cioran imagined, but he didn’t live to see QAnon or Twitter politics either.
🎯 Conclusion: Are These Views Contradictory?
Not necessarily. I am not wrong to feel Trump is dangerous. Cioran’s work is not invalidated either. Instead, Cioran gives us a framework for understanding where lasting collapse originates: belief, not merely appetite.
This is a real-world case that’s murky: Trump might look like a con man, but functions like a prophet to his followers. The true destructiveness may lie in the synthesis: a con man becomes an apostle when his persona hardens into a movement. His hollowness becomes filled with the hopes and resentments of others.
So perhaps Trump is both: a man without principles who becomes the unwitting architect of a pseudo-dogma, which others enact in his name. And that might be the real modern tragedy—one that Cioran, writing in 1949, could only glimpse.
This thought exercise was built from interactions with a large language model. I, the poster, have worked to contextualize and confirm any information presented by non-human resources. Thank you!
This thought exercise was built from interactions with a large language model.
fuck off
said the voice from deep within his Luddite cave
Luddism is when people question the torment nexus 🤓. I am extremely intelligent because Autocomplete With Extra Steps tells me so.
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There is conceivably a way to use LLMs as a search engine, but asking it to just vomit a bunch of text that responds to your writeup with a numbered list of points that are just brutish amalgamations of everything in the LLM’s training data is not that. Ironically, the LLM is itself a persona that believes in nothing and isn’t even capable of reasoning itself into a belief, at least nothing more than a blurry mean point of all the garbage that it was trained on.
Why do you assume I simply regurgitated text like some sort of asshole?
because everything about you screams “i am an incurious asshole with nothing valuable to say”
who upvoted this
Bring back the upvote purges, lmao
/s
I’m thinking about it just for the non-hexbears in this post.
Critical support comrade
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ask Claude AI to find the downvote button for you
I’d have to be a real bottom feeder to use Claude.
Lmao this is so deeply ironic. You, the one engaging with an LLM on philosophy, arguing that other people are the ones looking at shadows on the cave wall. Fucking incredible.
I also use Google search. Horrifying, I know. It’s almost like due diligence is still important…
😂🤣 You think doing a google search is equivalent to willingly allowing yourself to be subsumed by a machine, replacing yourself in the cognitive labor process and forcing yourself to be subservient to its design? Willingly deskilling yourself in the domain of cognition, that’s fucking awesome.
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What are you even talking about? By using a LLM you have literally placed your cognitive capacity at the whims of the LLM and its bounds. The labor of “thinking” is literally subsumed by the LLM and cannot be divorced from it as you become reliant on it. You will not ever reach conclusions outside the limits and bounds of the LLM and as such become ITS agent, not the other way around. You will literally deskill yourself in the necessary tasks required of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis.
You are not “enlightened” through its use. You are literally “talking” with shadows on the cave wall.
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due diligence
LLM and Google
Lmao
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go away
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You are the evil in this world
I thought Trump was the evil in this world
According to this thought exercise, Trump is the hollow conman filled up with his followers’ evil. He’s just the blimp, not the buoyant gas. Not the heat.
The true evil are his followers.
No one on hexbear supports trump. Unlike the democrats, who used the pied piper strategy to support his campaign in the 2016 primary and who ran appallingly bad candidates against him because their donors pay them to lose.
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Claude, write me an insult for the mean niche forum people who don’t appreciate my superior capacity for
philosophical thoughtasking a LLM prompt about philosophical thought.This should be a new tagline.
…thank you, I think.
Yeah, you know nothing of the culture. You are effectively illiterate in this context.
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You are the evil in this world, douchebag. I hope you suffer for it, endlessly.
So if you don’t mind, I altered the d-bag in your comment to “dirtbag” when I put it in the hexbear tagline archives.
Lmao I was about to go post that somewhere with the title “new tagline just dropped” but you were way ahead of me.
Thank you for letting me know. I’m truthfully not sure what that means to put a tagline into Lenny (I’m still a wee baby), but thanks for keeping me in the loop. 😄👍
It means that I, a hexbear admin, have memorialized one of your comments into the hexbear Canon of wild shit that’s been said by someone.
To see this in action I encourage you to take a quick pause from bickering here to go to hexbear.net and see what site tag lines show up for you. Heck even refresh the page and see what else we’ve saved as site taglines
Here’s an example image on where to look for site taglines.
Make sure to come back and let us know if you found some funny ones.
Thank you for educating me on this.
No consideration of material conditions, just “great man” theory of societal change. Deeply unserious.
Fair. Although the question (MY QUESTION, btw) was addressed, and great man history is exactly the name of the global political game right now. Yes, as unfortunate as that is, it is a relevant lens for this line of thought.
Maybe consider the value in a discussion before flinging shit.
No, it really isn’t. It completely misses the forest for the trees. It’s like if you lived in a medieval monarchy and started using Christian theological logic to analyze everything: just because it’s the logic of the regime doesn’t make it correct. You’d still be better off using materialist analysis.
I see. So you have solved philosophy, and you have the answer to my specific query. I should have turned to you and your substitute teaching degree (wait… “philosophy” degree) first. Noted. Maybe your opinion is going to be more impactful and helpful to mankind than this emergent, self-improving technology.
than this emergent, self-improving technology.
Pure sycophantic behavior. The technology isn’t “self-improving”. If you feed it its own output it literally dies.
The only thing that improves this technology is the labor of actual humans and their own creative and productive output. Have fun worshiping the machine that replaces your entire capacity for thought.
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Its called model collapse you fucking dipshit.
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Maybe your opinion is going to be more impactful and helpful to mankind than this emergent, self-improving technology.
shut up
By all means, I encourage you to keep talking for all the good it will never do.
how are you liberals all so fucking annoying?
A combination of smug ignorance, refusal to listen to or understand other people’s positions, and an inability to ever actually directly commit to an argument. It’s the perfect storm of someone VERY LOUDLY defending nothing, arguing nothing of substance, refusing to even consider that they could be incorrect, while also steadfastly insisting everyone else change their minds to their position, while never actually directly stating what that position is, keeping it nebulous in a motte and bailey argument, so it can never be directly addressed and challenged. They ALWAYS do this. Every time.
Reddit moment
So you have solved philosophy
Dialectical materialism is, in fact, the solution to philosophy
If not the solution to all philosophy (I’m always skeptical of anyone who claims to have The One True Universal Truth That Explains Everything, if you’ll forgive my bourgeois postmodernism) it’s clearly the most useful framework with which to analyze the world with the purpose of changing it. That’s evidenced by the fact that even the enemies of Marxists still use Marxist thought to figure out how to manage empire, as seen with the Nixon administration making all the strategists read Hudson’s Super Imperialism in 1973.
great man history is exactly the name of the global political game right now.
What zero historical materialist analysis does to a person.
True. That’s why the people who create this awful trend are not bachelor’s students with philosophy dreams.
My completely unsolicited advice to you: let it stay as dreams.
Making someone feel unwelcome for sharing their modest but earnest contribution is something a Trump supporter would do and say.
In another post, in response to a story about people getting fucked up by the AI slop pipeline bullshit you said this:
Survival of the fittest also applies to a chungus who has their first existential crisis and decides to ferment.
So spare me your pleas for sympathy you Darwin mangling, pseudointellectual fascist.
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Maybe consider demonstrating your own personal cognitive capacity by using it to structure your post before flinging shit.
Yeah I kinda did
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Great man theory is cringe and even worse than clash of civilization mumbo jumbo because clash of civilization as least acknowledges history is made by the masses of people.
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Applying great man theory to a dude who only has a decade of political life at best is even more cringe. At least popular great menTM like Caesar or Augustus had decades long political careers.
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I agree with other commenters: this is lacking historic materialism and, im sorry of this seems harsh, but the result is mostly bullshit. Material contradictions inherent in the economic system are leading to the inevitable downfall of the US empire and the ruling class, to keep it’s power, logically has to react to the crisis, by turning away from democracy and towards war. Trump, the noise around him, contemporary ideology, they all are only symptoms of the disease, not the cause. Focusing on one person in this way is plain ridiculous. Also, it does nothing to stop the turn towards fascism.
A trustworthy, honest leader with perfect integrity, if acting within the capitalist, imperialist system, would still need to dismantle democracy, crack down on labor rights, go to war, lower living standards, etc. just as much as a lying narcissist like Trump. The rate of profit would still continue to fall, debt would still be mounting, finance capital would continue to create larger and larger bubbles, the dollar would still lose its role, empty homes would still outnumber homeless people and plenty of work to be done would still lay untouched despite an army of unemployed people longing for work (I could go on). It’s obvious, that the only way out is another system and that needs organizing a mass movement of workers. Drama around Trump is a mere distraction.
LLMs aren’t honest with you. They aren’t critical enough. Even when you’re totally off track, they still act like yes-men. If you nevertheless want to use them, you could (in a new unprimed chat) try asking them to contradict you and list every way your argument could possibly be attacked from certain points of view (e.g. Marxist, historic materialist, dialectical).