Do you think if this message alone spread (it already has) that anyone is going to take it seriously? The top polluters and the ones deciding what our packaging is like are the most wealthy corporations on Earth and they are the ones doing the most climate damage, and the ones who control the narrative and our politics.
Do you think “ban plastics” will ever be a populist political talking point in these conditions? Do you think it would gain momentum?
Or are we looking at it wrong? What if more of us targeted the system that is sustaining climate destruction with an actual populist idea? What if we started wresting control and money away from the companies filling our sea with plastic?
Do you want to spread a message of lasting change? Start spreading “pro family, pro children” messages like the need for social help as millions become jobless as capital starts digesting itself in its current late-stage. You want to see plastics away? (No we’re never seeing an end to cardboard, that’s unrealistic to push for.) Then start advocating for Universal Basic Income and other measures that put control back in the hands of the people.
Glass bottles aren’t a free win. Glass is very heavy to transport and extremely energy-intensive to manufacture. It made sense back when people hardly drank any soda. It still makes sense for things like condiments (soy sauce, vinegar, etc) and alcoholic drinks but it doesn’t make any sense for everyday drinks like water or soda.
We should be investing in better municipal water treatment facilities so that tap water doesn’t taste awful. Where I live the tap water is horrible but I’ve visited places where the tap water tastes perfectly clean and pleasant. If we had universally tasty tap water then people would stop buying plastic water bottles.
As for soda, I could see glass bottles being excellent if we could bring consumption down to a reasonable level. Many people guzzle soda as if it were water which is both terrible for their health and the environment.
Yes, it’s just hard to do, especially for people without a car. Hauling a large number of heavy glass bottles to the grocery store on public transit is quite a burden!
Here you can get them at most grocery stores.
It’s also usually the standard for German Brands, it’s mostly Coca Cola Brands that are sold in Single-Use-Plastic
Not in Iran. Only some restaurants, mostly old school ones carry them now. They also take the bottle back, send it to the factory, where they are cleaned and filled again.
Not disposable is what you mean I think, the pet bottles aren’t refilled so they actually are recycled unlike beer bottles which are reused and not single use (mehrweg in german). The term is a bit confusing because it is also used to describe stuff like plastic bags, cutlery and ‘paper’ cups (you bin those after using it once)
Well, here in California we’ve decided that most stores are mandated to provide “reusable” plastic shopping bags (at a cost of $0.10 each) which are more durable and made of a thicker plastic.
I don’t know a single person that treats them as any less disposable than the thin plastic bags they replaced. There is little to no information or infrastructure supporting recycling them.
I’m just glad the stores around here give paper bags if you ask for them.
Nah, there are a lot of glass and plastic bottles that do get reused a couple of times. You can oftentimes even spot a characteristic ring of scratch marks from the machines that process, clean and refill the bottles.
Typical „Mehrwegflaschen“ are
Beer bottles (glass)
Milk bottles (glass)
Lemonade bottles (glass)
Water bottles (glass and plastic)
Coca-Cola/Fanta/Sprite bottles (glass and plastic)
Yoghurt cups (glass)
There are multiple standardised types and sizes that are used by a multitude of brands. They are not recycled but reused. (Well, they do get recycled, once they are either broken or show heavy signs of use. The „Normbrunnenflasche“, the 0,7L standard bottle for water, for example, gets refilled about 100 times.)
And of course there is the „Pfand“ (deposit) system: Depending on the type of bottle, you usually pay a 8ct or 15ct deposit on the bottles. The system works pretty well.
Of course, there’s also a lot of one way bottles. Those usually have a 25ct deposit and are not reusable but get recycled instead. They’re usually also being brought back to the store, people want their 25ct back after all. (And yes, I know a lot of them aren’t actually recycled but end up at a landfill all the same).
And of course, there are also a lot of glass bottles that are not being reused and instead recycled by default like wine bottles or some non-standard types.
And yes, I know a lot of them aren’t actually recycled but end up at a landfill all the same
Really? Got a source on that? I know that we’re still not that good in recycling plastics in general, But last time I checked the quota of PET recycling was quite high.
Thanks to the deposit-return system, recycling rates for PET bottles in Germany are indeed very high. Over 97% actually (which is quite awesome). Still leaves a few percent that aren’t, which is still a lot of plastic but we’re way above average.
In the USA for example, only about a third of PET bottles get actually recycled. The rest heads to the landfill or the burner.
For the yellow bag in Germany btw. (our trash system for plastic and compound packaging, tin cans, aluminium foil, etc.), the recycling rate is about two thirds in total.
Why do you mean? Am I missing some context? Or do you think I’m conflating recyclable with reusable?
They actually do have re-use programs where bottles are cleaned and refilled. Unfortunately they also have single use, that are only recycled, I’m not trying to hide that. But the re-use program seems good to me. I wish we had it in Switzerland.
you shouldnt cause recycling is a scam and wastes energy and material.
The guilt was pushed upon the consumer by the plastic industry.
Real solution would be regulations on what materials are allowed for packaging, and making clear guidelines how a thing should be packaged so you dont get 20 fucking boxes filled with plastic bags and peanuts and foam for a pet rock.
Reusable is different than recyclable. They mentioned reusable plastic as in you make it out of a thicker material and only wash it in between uses so that by the time it’s actually damaged enough to be recycled it’s been used many times
You’re constantly moving Goalposts.
Point is, “Mehrweg”-Bottles in Germany are getting refilled, and they are more environmentally friendly than the single use ones.
The PET-Multiuse even more so because they have smaller transport emissions thanks to the smaller weight
That’s not where all our microplastics are coming from, the much bigger concern is driving cars which leaches a bunch of microplastics from the tires that end up in our waterways. By reusing the plastics you have less deliveries so less microplastics in your local water supply
Micro rubbers, I much prefer to believe we’re just helping the microscopic life forms practice safe sex. It’s the only way to stop viruses from spreading 🤷♀️
I believe that glass is more of a solution than a problem. Compared to plastic, it is more durable, its production process has less impact on the environment and not to mention that in the case of beverages, returnable glass packaging is better in several aspects
There have been extensive studies on that topic, that showed that PET-bottles are more sustainable and environment friendly than glass bottles and have less impact on the environmdnt. Glass bottles use a lot more energy to produce and transport than PET bottles, and the oil you save by using PET instead of glass is more than enough to produce the PET you need. You also save sand, potash, limestone, soda and a ton of CO2.
If renewables would become the prime source of energy for glass production and transportation, this conclusion might change, and if the effects of microplastics and ocean pollution are considered it might change as well.
Regarding sources, there is an abundance of them in German and quite a few in English. I’ll leave this one as an example.
Multi-use glass is were it’s at. Producing glass is an energy intense process, the more you use it the bettet it gets. Single use glass packaging is a crime. (Same goes for plastics multi-use>single-use)
glass is theoretically more sustainable, while its production does not involve the same kind of problems as plastic it is a lot more energy intensive so without proper energy infrastructure it is trading plastic pollution for carbon emissions, also heavier contributing to transport costs. With proper infrastructure for reusing the bottles the energy impact of production can be mitigated significantly.
and even without proper reusage infrastructure the options for the glass is 1. resmelted into new glass 2. landfill->glass shards quickly become essentially just sand 3. environment where it also becomes sand
so while even without proper infrastructure the pollutans are essentially just emissions if properly treated just co2 (though modern kilns can be electric arc reducing emissions just to that of the country’s electricity infrastructure) and gravel.
In contrast plastic has lower production emissions but the waste in environment is to put it lightly quite a bit more harmful than gravel and the effects are still not fully understood especially ones of microplastics
You cannot use cardboard for liquids. There are containers that have a cardboard exterior – just tear them, and you’ll find out they are made out of a sandwich material with an interior layer of plastic, meddle layer of aluminium and exterior cardboard. almist unrecyclable.
Else, fruits and food that don’t really need packaging because they have a natural bacteria barrier, or something similar
But yea I don’t see any good sanitary alternative. Since we’re bound to get microplastics I guess reusable containers that are only washed and reused a couple of times would be beneficial, at the cost of a little more microplastics.
Some kind of paper to a certain extend for some things, but yea, nothing is as good as plastic :(
Don’t use plastic where you don’t need to. And then maybe use cardboard+thin plastic for the rest: less recyclable, but less plastic 🤔. Depends on the route you want to choose: less pollution or less plastic waste
Unfortunately they also pollute quite a bit, and cardboard isn’t really safe for consumption. How do you store meat for example? Metal cans are expensive, and glass is expensive, fragile and heavy, making it a worse option, as weight has strong impacts.
I was actually just thinking of bottles, because that’s what the op is about. So like just for beverages. I already get almost all of my beverages in cardboard, so it’s actually possible.
There are no cardboard container for liquids — cardboard soaks and dissolves in water. What you are likely refering to is tetrapak, a compound material made of plastic, aluminium and cardboard. I think I’ve seen packages using only plastic coated cardboard without aluminium as well. You can test it yourself: just rip it apart and you can examine the layers of the compound material.
I don’t know about the impact of production — paper production still destroys woods, needs lots of water and energy, aluminium needs tons of energy. Probably better than glass and worse than PET?
Transportationwise they are as good as PET, probably better.
Regarding recycling they are a nightmare, it’s almost impossible, because you have to separate the three layers which are designed to stick together. Tetrapak claims they are recycling them, but this technique is fairly new and I’ve got no idea how well it works and how sustainable it is.
I thought at least some of it was wax… but what did people drink out of before plastic was invented?? I’m not saying we have to regress technologically, but surely this is a solved problem.
People would make their own beverages (mostly beer and wine, as alcohol was the only preservant working) and use barrels to store them and mugs to drink them. After the development of pasteurization they would pasteurize juice and keep it in glass bottles. And they would share with neighbours, family and friends.
Of course there were breweries and wineries, too, they would sell their stuff mostly in barrels to pubs, and people would buy their beer and wine at the pub if they couldn’t make their own. In our area it was a common task for children to get a mug of beer for dad from the pub until the 50s, I think.
Pre-fabricated, non-alcoholic, bottled beverages are a modern luxury item we all got used to as normal.
Use a water bottle in stainless steel: safe to drink from and to wash, not really heavy, and keeps the temperature. Stainless steel is for reusable containers, but I’m not sure you can recycle it easily and efficiently. It’s also a bit expensive.
Glass is infinitely recyclable but it needs a lot of energy to be produced and recycled (you need to heat it a lot), is fragile, relatively expensive, and a lot is needed to make a good container, so it gets heavy, which might outweigh the positives sides it has.
Ban plastic for consumables, glass and cardboard forever!!!
That’s great, now how?
Do you think if this message alone spread (it already has) that anyone is going to take it seriously? The top polluters and the ones deciding what our packaging is like are the most wealthy corporations on Earth and they are the ones doing the most climate damage, and the ones who control the narrative and our politics.
Do you think “ban plastics” will ever be a populist political talking point in these conditions? Do you think it would gain momentum?
Or are we looking at it wrong? What if more of us targeted the system that is sustaining climate destruction with an actual populist idea? What if we started wresting control and money away from the companies filling our sea with plastic?
Do you want to spread a message of lasting change? Start spreading “pro family, pro children” messages like the need for social help as millions become jobless as capital starts digesting itself in its current late-stage. You want to see plastics away? (No we’re never seeing an end to cardboard, that’s unrealistic to push for.) Then start advocating for Universal Basic Income and other measures that put control back in the hands of the people.
Glass bottles aren’t a free win. Glass is very heavy to transport and extremely energy-intensive to manufacture. It made sense back when people hardly drank any soda. It still makes sense for things like condiments (soy sauce, vinegar, etc) and alcoholic drinks but it doesn’t make any sense for everyday drinks like water or soda.
We should be investing in better municipal water treatment facilities so that tap water doesn’t taste awful. Where I live the tap water is horrible but I’ve visited places where the tap water tastes perfectly clean and pleasant. If we had universally tasty tap water then people would stop buying plastic water bottles.
As for soda, I could see glass bottles being excellent if we could bring consumption down to a reasonable level. Many people guzzle soda as if it were water which is both terrible for their health and the environment.
Where glass wins big is in reusability. We need to get people to refill/reuse their glass bottles rather than recycling them.
Yes, it’s just hard to do, especially for people without a car. Hauling a large number of heavy glass bottles to the grocery store on public transit is quite a burden!
Glass soda bottles just hit different™ I would pay extra if it’s an option
They do, but you’re not supposed to hit people with them.
Glass is a verb isn’t it? What else would you do with them.
average NCD Member lmao
Yes, but not the one I was initially thinking of. I am also British.
Here you can get them at most grocery stores. It’s also usually the standard for German Brands, it’s mostly Coca Cola Brands that are sold in Single-Use-Plastic
Not in Iran. Only some restaurants, mostly old school ones carry them now. They also take the bottle back, send it to the factory, where they are cleaned and filled again.
Err, the fact that you get a deposit back when returning the bottles means they’re most certainly NOT single use.
PET flasks are very easily recycled. Easier then glass. There is a whole industry built on it!
Here in NL we’ve had this system for as long as i can remember. (Im over 50)
Not disposable is what you mean I think, the pet bottles aren’t refilled so they actually are recycled unlike beer bottles which are reused and not single use (mehrweg in german). The term is a bit confusing because it is also used to describe stuff like plastic bags, cutlery and ‘paper’ cups (you bin those after using it once)
Cute little pet bottles. /j
You still get the micro plastic bonus tho
Err, wrong. Every Bottle in Germany has a deposit on them. 25ct for Single Use PET 15ct for Multi-Use PET and Glass Bottles
And Use refers to the amount of times they get refilled until the material gets recycled.
So…we say the same thing? The bottle or the materials get reused when there is a deposit?
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I’ve stopped drinking from plastic bottles completely. And glass bottled soda is so rare here that I buy it whenever I come across it.
Sadly my preferred brand of cider recently changed from glass bottles to plastic ones, so I’m looking around.
In case you didn’t know, I think you might like to know: In Germany they also do reusable PET and reusable glass.
“reusable” in really big quotation marks
I mean, they get collected, washed, and reused. Not sure why the sarcasm about it?
Well, here in California we’ve decided that most stores are mandated to provide “reusable” plastic shopping bags (at a cost of $0.10 each) which are more durable and made of a thicker plastic.
I don’t know a single person that treats them as any less disposable than the thin plastic bags they replaced. There is little to no information or infrastructure supporting recycling them.
I’m just glad the stores around here give paper bags if you ask for them.
reusable plastic bags are perfect for small trash bags for little litter, the non reusable variant needs 2-3 to prevent leakage, paper just sucks.
Nah, there are a lot of glass and plastic bottles that do get reused a couple of times. You can oftentimes even spot a characteristic ring of scratch marks from the machines that process, clean and refill the bottles.
Typical „Mehrwegflaschen“ are
There are multiple standardised types and sizes that are used by a multitude of brands. They are not recycled but reused. (Well, they do get recycled, once they are either broken or show heavy signs of use. The „Normbrunnenflasche“, the 0,7L standard bottle for water, for example, gets refilled about 100 times.)
And of course there is the „Pfand“ (deposit) system: Depending on the type of bottle, you usually pay a 8ct or 15ct deposit on the bottles. The system works pretty well.
Of course, there’s also a lot of one way bottles. Those usually have a 25ct deposit and are not reusable but get recycled instead. They’re usually also being brought back to the store, people want their 25ct back after all. (And yes, I know a lot of them aren’t actually recycled but end up at a landfill all the same).
And of course, there are also a lot of glass bottles that are not being reused and instead recycled by default like wine bottles or some non-standard types.
Really? Got a source on that? I know that we’re still not that good in recycling plastics in general, But last time I checked the quota of PET recycling was quite high.
Thanks to the deposit-return system, recycling rates for PET bottles in Germany are indeed very high. Over 97% actually (which is quite awesome). Still leaves a few percent that aren’t, which is still a lot of plastic but we’re way above average.
In the USA for example, only about a third of PET bottles get actually recycled. The rest heads to the landfill or the burner.
For the yellow bag in Germany btw. (our trash system for plastic and compound packaging, tin cans, aluminium foil, etc.), the recycling rate is about two thirds in total.
Why do you mean? Am I missing some context? Or do you think I’m conflating recyclable with reusable?
They actually do have re-use programs where bottles are cleaned and refilled. Unfortunately they also have single use, that are only recycled, I’m not trying to hide that. But the re-use program seems good to me. I wish we had it in Switzerland.
https://www.nabu.de/umwelt-und-ressourcen/ressourcenschonung/einzelhandel-und-umwelt/mehrweg/nabumehrwegguide.html
Some PET bottles are reusable in Germany, and the scuff marks are a very clear sign some of these bottles have been used a good dozen times.
It’s not all bottles though, many will be crushed and recycled (I hope).
you shouldnt cause recycling is a scam and wastes energy and material. The guilt was pushed upon the consumer by the plastic industry.
Real solution would be regulations on what materials are allowed for packaging, and making clear guidelines how a thing should be packaged so you dont get 20 fucking boxes filled with plastic bags and peanuts and foam for a pet rock.
Du you have any sources on the claim that recycling is a scam?
Dude, >98% of the Bottles in Germany get recycled, and thanks to the deposit system they get pure PET out of it which is well recyclable.
Plastic pollution is a big problem. PET Bottles in Western Europe aren’t a part of it. Other plastics are
Dude, why are you spreading bullshit when it’s quite obvious you have no clue?
There is no such thing as an indefinitely recyclable plastic. The best kind can only be recycled a few times.
Reusable is different than recyclable. They mentioned reusable plastic as in you make it out of a thicker material and only wash it in between uses so that by the time it’s actually damaged enough to be recycled it’s been used many times
You can do that if you want to eat a lot of microplastics
You’re constantly moving Goalposts. Point is, “Mehrweg”-Bottles in Germany are getting refilled, and they are more environmentally friendly than the single use ones. The PET-Multiuse even more so because they have smaller transport emissions thanks to the smaller weight
That’s not where all our microplastics are coming from, the much bigger concern is driving cars which leaches a bunch of microplastics from the tires that end up in our waterways. By reusing the plastics you have less deliveries so less microplastics in your local water supply
Micro rubbers, I much prefer to believe we’re just helping the microscopic life forms practice safe sex. It’s the only way to stop viruses from spreading 🤷♀️
I believe that glass is more of a solution than a problem. Compared to plastic, it is more durable, its production process has less impact on the environment and not to mention that in the case of beverages, returnable glass packaging is better in several aspects
There have been extensive studies on that topic, that showed that PET-bottles are more sustainable and environment friendly than glass bottles and have less impact on the environmdnt. Glass bottles use a lot more energy to produce and transport than PET bottles, and the oil you save by using PET instead of glass is more than enough to produce the PET you need. You also save sand, potash, limestone, soda and a ton of CO2.
If renewables would become the prime source of energy for glass production and transportation, this conclusion might change, and if the effects of microplastics and ocean pollution are considered it might change as well.
Regarding sources, there is an abundance of them in German and quite a few in English. I’ll leave this one as an example.
Multi-use glass is were it’s at. Producing glass is an energy intense process, the more you use it the bettet it gets. Single use glass packaging is a crime. (Same goes for plastics multi-use>single-use)
glass is theoretically more sustainable, while its production does not involve the same kind of problems as plastic it is a lot more energy intensive so without proper energy infrastructure it is trading plastic pollution for carbon emissions, also heavier contributing to transport costs. With proper infrastructure for reusing the bottles the energy impact of production can be mitigated significantly. and even without proper reusage infrastructure the options for the glass is 1. resmelted into new glass 2. landfill->glass shards quickly become essentially just sand 3. environment where it also becomes sand
so while even without proper infrastructure the pollutans are essentially just emissions if properly treated just co2 (though modern kilns can be electric arc reducing emissions just to that of the country’s electricity infrastructure) and gravel. In contrast plastic has lower production emissions but the waste in environment is to put it lightly quite a bit more harmful than gravel and the effects are still not fully understood especially ones of microplastics
Glas is not used anymore because it’s much heavier (= more expensive when freight is charged by weight) and breaks when you drop the palett.
Cellophane, jute, wood and metal are good as well
and use what instead?
I literally answered it lmao
I read it as “ban glass and cardboard as well”
What did people use before plastic? Glass and cardboard!
Glass Recycling costs way more energy than plastic recycling.
But in Germany we reuse bottles too, probably the most effective.
What about cardboard?
You cannot use cardboard for liquids. There are containers that have a cardboard exterior – just tear them, and you’ll find out they are made out of a sandwich material with an interior layer of plastic, meddle layer of aluminium and exterior cardboard. almist unrecyclable.
I believe it uses a lot of water and isn’t really safe for food consumption, and for preserving food
Is there nothing better for the environment than plastic at least?
Yes it’s called Tap Water and refilling your own bottle
Short distribution channels would be the best
Else, fruits and food that don’t really need packaging because they have a natural bacteria barrier, or something similar
But yea I don’t see any good sanitary alternative. Since we’re bound to get microplastics I guess reusable containers that are only washed and reused a couple of times would be beneficial, at the cost of a little more microplastics.
Some kind of paper to a certain extend for some things, but yea, nothing is as good as plastic :(
Don’t use plastic where you don’t need to. And then maybe use cardboard+thin plastic for the rest: less recyclable, but less plastic 🤔. Depends on the route you want to choose: less pollution or less plastic waste
If there only would be a pipeline to each house providing a stream of clean drinkable water
I read it as “ban glass and cardboard as well”
Unfortunately they also pollute quite a bit, and cardboard isn’t really safe for consumption. How do you store meat for example? Metal cans are expensive, and glass is expensive, fragile and heavy, making it a worse option, as weight has strong impacts.
I was actually just thinking of bottles, because that’s what the op is about. So like just for beverages. I already get almost all of my beverages in cardboard, so it’s actually possible.
There are no cardboard container for liquids — cardboard soaks and dissolves in water. What you are likely refering to is tetrapak, a compound material made of plastic, aluminium and cardboard. I think I’ve seen packages using only plastic coated cardboard without aluminium as well. You can test it yourself: just rip it apart and you can examine the layers of the compound material.
I don’t know about the impact of production — paper production still destroys woods, needs lots of water and energy, aluminium needs tons of energy. Probably better than glass and worse than PET?
Transportationwise they are as good as PET, probably better.
Regarding recycling they are a nightmare, it’s almost impossible, because you have to separate the three layers which are designed to stick together. Tetrapak claims they are recycling them, but this technique is fairly new and I’ve got no idea how well it works and how sustainable it is.
Beverage in cardbord? It’s still just plastic on top of it
I thought at least some of it was wax… but what did people drink out of before plastic was invented?? I’m not saying we have to regress technologically, but surely this is a solved problem.
People would make their own beverages (mostly beer and wine, as alcohol was the only preservant working) and use barrels to store them and mugs to drink them. After the development of pasteurization they would pasteurize juice and keep it in glass bottles. And they would share with neighbours, family and friends.
Of course there were breweries and wineries, too, they would sell their stuff mostly in barrels to pubs, and people would buy their beer and wine at the pub if they couldn’t make their own. In our area it was a common task for children to get a mug of beer for dad from the pub until the 50s, I think.
Pre-fabricated, non-alcoholic, bottled beverages are a modern luxury item we all got used to as normal.
Glass, stainless steel I guess.
Use a water bottle in stainless steel: safe to drink from and to wash, not really heavy, and keeps the temperature. Stainless steel is for reusable containers, but I’m not sure you can recycle it easily and efficiently. It’s also a bit expensive.
Glass is infinitely recyclable but it needs a lot of energy to be produced and recycled (you need to heat it a lot), is fragile, relatively expensive, and a lot is needed to make a good container, so it gets heavy, which might outweigh the positives sides it has.
Also ceramics, it has most of the problems of glass but not as easily recyclable.
See for example roman amphores that were basically single-use