Hello users of hexbear:
Due to recent meta posts in our mutual aid community we wanted to open up discussion about the community !mutual_aid@hexbear.net
We will never require explanation or justification from a user asking for aid in the community, and the mod and admin team continue to commit to not featuring an individual’s mutual aid request to prevent unfair exposure.
In addition, we will maintain a strict “No critical comments or meta comments” on a mutual aid post.
This post is to discuss the mutual aid community’s rule of allowing meta posts: mutual aid as a community, those making posts in it and those commenting on posts.
We are considering removing the exception allowing meta posts but wanted to involve the userbase before committing to a change.
Please comment with any thoughts, feelings, or suggestions regarding this change.
Thank you
You must log in or register to comment.
No to all of the above. Honestly it feels like you’re trying to fix something that wasn’t broken. Was the issue of people scamming even that bad? Afaik all the posts I’ve seen in the mutual aid comm feel and seem legit. If anything I think we should probably have stickied fundraisers for people who’re homeless or on the verge of missing rent. Putting all these arbitrary limits on people’s posting feels like it’s setting up the comm to die and I hope the moderators understand that people’s lives are literally on the line with this shit.
featuring an individual fundraiser at a site level will not be changed back there are too many and it isn’t fair to those that don’t get the same amount of time site featured as another. pinning them to the top of the mutual aid community could be a good idea however i think that it is better to make new posts that can rise in the active/hot sort algorithm.
I get the desire to center the folks receiving aid, but if the donors don’t feel like there are enough safeguards wont they just stop donating? You can try to convince them or shame them, but that probably isn’t going to work, especially when they could very easily find somewhere else to donate that has systems of accountability, demonstrable impact, etc.
my 2c as someone who isn’t in a position to give financial aid but could help with some things like helping teach skills, review CVs, drive someone places, be a fake reference, help with shopping etc, potentially put someone up short term, and the like:
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the comm seems to incentivise only financial aid. Fine, money solves a lot of problems, wish I had more.
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Because of the competitive nature of posting users seem incentivised to dramatise their needs. Some posts have seemed medically implausible, which does not mean someone doesn’t need help it just makes it hard to understand where you can be effective and potentially drowns out folks presenting their needs in a more low key fashion.
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People don’t list the currency they need which makes it hard to know if you can afford to help
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One off vs expected chronic needs are not differentiated. Stuff like “For the forseeable future I need a place to live” and “I am sick and need cash to see a doctor” have vastly different scopes and solutions, and put very different degrees of obligation on someone willing and able to help.
I dunno what the solution is, life is hard as fuck. Hoping there’s a way to help more people get what they need.
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I don’t know what any of this is in reference to but it seems pretty strange to be worried about the chain of custody of money you give to someone on here but not give 2 shits about BDS or where the corporation you work for spends the product of your labor…
Why are beggars held to a higher standard than capitalists?
Also I want to say something about the criticism, if you can call it that, I’m receiving down-thread:
Nobody brought their concerns up, either publicly, when I directly asked the community if everything was OK, nor privately, over DM. And then you don’t @ me, so that I can just continue being blissfully unaware of why it seems like everyone hates me.
What’s really cool about this, too, is when someone makes some balls to the wall dumb statement, like accusing me of having bought two cars or that I had my car impounded after I harassed the neighbors (where the fuck did the last one even come from?), I have no opportunity to try to set the record straight. And then it just spreads like a game of telephone.
This community’s existence is literally the very reason why I’ve been able to keep being alive. At times, I’ve been able to receive assistance from less anonymous sources, but Hexbear is the place that truly kept me going considering the amount of support I’ve gotten here.
This isn’t an exaggeration—if I look back on my life for as long as I’ve been in these shitty circumstances and reimagine me navigating them without c/mutual_aid, it’s a very nerve-wracking hypothetical to ponder. I most likely would’ve been dead soon enough.
Skepticism is certainly expected, but I feel like the desire to weed out scammers or disingenuous people is seeming so strong through this struggle that people are myopically forgetting to consider what some hard restrictions on this community would actually entail for the state of some of our lives.
I hate that I have to rely on c/mutual_aid to literally survive; that brief period where I actually had a job and didn’t have to use this community as a recipient (and could even use it as a donor) was the happiest time period I can recall while being through this whole mess. And then, without an iota of transparency, that job chops me, but after trying to find work since then, even at the least demanding (in terms of requirements) workplaces, I realized the ride will continue to be a long, bumpy one. I hate working with animal products, but I went as far to apply to places like McDonald’s and KFC, and I still couldn’t get hired.
Being Black and transfem led me to this hell, but something I’ve always picked up on from people is that they might do something like put #blacktranslivesmatter in their bio but not actually understand just how harsh it can be to live this way, especially if you are in a reactionary region, as I do. And, as I can see, I’m not the only person who is saying these sort of things.
I don’t know what else to say other than I hope we come to a reasonable solution here. This anxiety is far from what I need right now, so I’m going to try not to read these comments too much.
A lot of scratched liberals in this thread. Some of you really couldn’t help yourselves, could you?
A user spent the money on drugs!
Who gives a shit? Would it matter if some of the Palestinians in Mutual Aid wanted to get high after seeing their families murdered? No, it wouldn’t. You’re just means testing based on location and circumstance. If anything, I appreciate the honesty and transparency. But rather than trying to help people deal with addiction, some of you saltine-looking motherfuckers would rather wag your finger at vulnerable people as you pearl clutch over “”““crime””“” the way your fellow liberals think drug addiction deserves jail time.
A user got too much money!
Again, who gives a shit? If you think someone got too much money, then don’t donate to them. It’s as simple as that. Nobody is making you give money to anonymous strangers.
Someone is scamming!
Yeah, no shit? You’re sending money into the void. It’s anonymous. Nothing you see on the internet is real, even when people have their real names and photos attached to a profile. That’s the risk you take when you contribute to Mutal Aid. Donating to someone, then finding out it was a “scam” is on you. Do you go around telling people your social security number? How about your debit card PIN? Because I do. I tell medical professionals and social services my SSN when I think I can trust them to use that information appropriately. If I get a scam call, I don’t tell them shit. I hang up. Mutal Aid is similar: either you trust the person on the other end to use their discretion or you don’t. If you don’t trust them, then why are you giving them money? If you do trust them, then why are you getting up in their shit over how it’s being used? You’re not donating to improve the material conditions someone lives in. You’re donating to have power over them. Fuck you.
They didn’t spend the money on what they said they would!
You sound like the reactionaries who piss and shit all over themselves because poor people have smartphones and refrigerators. That’s you, except you’re saying it to people treating themselves to a nicer meal or having a Netflix subscription they can watch while they live outside in a fucking tent while it rains. If you want to have it be for a specific thing, then be upfront about your means testing. You can DM the user about getting them a gift card for a specific thing or call the place the person is going to be buying their $200,174,192 doodad and pay for it electronically. But don’t do this shit where you give them money with no strings attached, then try to attach strings after it’s been handed over.
Seriously a bunch of you cracker liberals are just mad the filthy poors don’t kiss your feet and wipe your ass. The fuck are you even here for? LARPing-ass poser leftist dipshits who want to maintain unjust hierarchies that benefit them.
People who are posting stupid shit in this thread deserve this level of abrasiveness and calling out. I had to disengage last night because there’s an entire 10 replies deep thread complaining about the fact that the online message board gossip they just heard about hasn’t resulted in a homeless person getting banned from one of the only places allowing them to access survival funds. That level of hate is vile. Frankly this site would never allow that kind of dog whistle and concern troll style posting against our GSM and POC comrades and we shouldn’t tolerate it against homeless ones.
Pretending that some kind of rules lawyering and virtue signaling on an online anonymous message board is going to “more efficiently” solve mutual aid problems is equally as stupid as thinking that we’re going to start the next communist revolution or “get Bernie elected”. Grow the fuck up.
We’re ships passing in the night. Some of those ships need money. Other ships want to help. Leave it alone. It’s not the community’s business to get into this drama. It’s the business of the users involved and the mods/admins on how they want to run mutual aid. Making this the communities business is going to be a good way to fuck up a unique and unabashedly good part of the fediverse permanently over some petty Hasan vs Ethan style bullshit. These aren’t podcasters mining drama for clicks, they’re real people.
Honestly disgusted by that thread and the wider chilling effect this already seems to have. I understand people want to feel like they’re doing the most good possible, but that doesn’t give anyone the right to dictate how aid gets spent. These are systemic problems that cannot be fixed by wiring someone cash.
10 replies deep thread complaining about the fact that the online message board gossip they just heard about hasn’t resulted in a homeless person getting banned
Exactly. They’re being classist scumbags and if anyone should get banned, it’s them for being reactionaries. We all know the War on Drugs is a sham, yet here these fucks are wanting to wage it against other users over some bullshit.
I’ve donated twice, one of those was probably a scam in the early days of this site but I really don’t care what people do with the money because if I’m donating it on fucking hexbear dot net I’ve already made peace with it.
If you fear you’re throwing your money away or think this is some kind of parasocial investment instrument you need to move on, stop moralising, and log off.
I know that one of the primary pillars of leftist thought of any stripe is helping each other help each other, but reading through mutual_aid always bums me out because I wish I could do more to help those in need I myself am also broke.
It reminds me of all the heart churning stories on gofundme, people need help (people need a lot more than help but you know what I mean). It’s a shame our loose web of online weirdos can’t catch everyone who is slipping.
The problem we’re seeking to solve, the problem that hurts to see over and over, is quite intense grinding poverty along with other attendant problems, for example chronic conditions. It’s one thing to spot cash to a friend or a comrade or even someone begging irl so they can get smokes, or raise funds to cover someone’s birth expenses, its another to more or less try to get someone out of crisis and then help them get out of poverty - but with no boundaries or plans or often training on the side of donators and then hoping that the person asking for cash can get all that sorted presumably on their own potentially without formal help from something like outpatient mental health or irl social workers or shelters, etc. Potentially wkthout the latter because people have had plenty of bad even traumatic experiences engaging with formal services and anonymous cash really can make a small difference day to day even if it doesn’t seem to add up to an arc or momentum.
I know how you feel, I only have so much to go around. My sisters ask for money, my friend got their disability cut and I spot her quite often, I donate here… at where I work it’s easy to see how far people fall and the most I can do is help stabalize and then kick em out the door for the next round of people in crisis.
I’ve done some self crit and no longer think meta posting should be allowed
I think the path forward dealing with potential scams should be the user who thinks someone is scamming should message the mods/admins, they can determine if the accused user should be banned, and then they make a mod post if they choose to ban them
So part of my issue is I feel like lying is conflated with scamming. I’m not going to hold it against someone if they feel the need to lie or embellish facts in order to get something to eat.
The only reason I’d want someone banned is if there is verifiable evidence of them saying shit like “yeah, I’m taking money from these stupid fucks, I don’t even need the money.”
They’ve been resisting being seen as arbiters and I don’t think they want the extra workload.
I agree it’d be extra work, I dont know if there’s any way of doing things better than we are right now but wish things could be improved :/
Wanted to update what the considered changes to the community are in summary:
- users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post
- display name is changed to “emergency aid”
- users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.)
- user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format
- users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment
- user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met
- meta posts are no longer permitted
We will do a follow up post where voting on keeping the community as is or changing it will occur.
If you want to propose changes to this summary please answer in a comment below this one.
- do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?
- do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?
- do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?
- do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?
- do you think we should allow meta posts?
This is my reply to the dm, which I’m also going to post here.
Are you happy with the community as it currently is?
No. It isn’t very effective at getting aid.
users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post
3 times a week is too few and $100 ain’t shit. If there’s to be a money limit, it needs to be much higher.
display name is changed to “emergency aid”
No opinion.
users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.)
Good idea. Only if the user communicates it. No unsolicited offers, because 9 times out of 10 they probably won’t help.
user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format
I usually do this anyway. I think it’s a good idea.
users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment
Potentially good idea, but unless they provide receipts I don’t think this would work out. What’s to stop someone claiming to have donated to make others think the need is already met when it hasn’t been?
user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met
Good idea.
meta posts are no longer permitted
Bad idea. There needs to be mechanisms for community discussion.
Just woke up, might have more thoughts later.
Here is my public position.
- do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?
No.
- do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?
No.
- do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?
No.
- do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?
Put it to a vote.
- do you think we should allow meta posts?
No, put it to a vote.
- users communicate if they are open to non monetary resources (local aid groups, etc.)
Unnecessary. This already occurs when requested.
- user requests aid, amount requested in title using [$0/$x] format
No. Add rule to ask to voluntarily do so if it fits the context of their needs.
- user updates title with amount received and the thread is locked when the goal is met
No to a hard rule. Yes as a voluntary obligation to requestors as they are able to and no unless specifically requested.
I was just reading and upvoting occasionally up to this point, but I am strongly opposed to a $100 limit (or any financial limit for that matter) and feel I need to directly say so.
There was a time a few years ago where my wife and I were very close to homelessness. We asked in a mutual aid channel of a discord server I sometimes participated in (similar vibe to here, effectively anonymous, mostly just people asking for cash if they need it and giving cash when they can), and thanks to a few very generous people we were able to raise $600. She’s immunocompromised and diabetic, it would have been the two of us and a cat with no car, unable to find work, no way to store insulin, no way to buy insulin, almost certainly unable to mask effectively during a pandemic, and with no friends or family we could turn to. We needed every penny of that money and, through sheer luck and several close calls, managed to avoid the worst case scenario and have now gotten back to a fairly stable living situation.
If there had been a $100 asking limit I am certain that reality would have come to pass and we would not be where we are now. I cannot see any way in which any limit on how much people can ask for will actually, provably help anyone, but I can easily imagine a scenario where a limit endangers or kills people, our comrades and our loved ones.
I think the theory is that a limit to how much each person could ask for allows for more people to use the comms for help, as most donators will have a limited amount to give each week. I agree it’s just too rigid in practice to be a useful change though, especially since the admins couldn’t give exceptions without effectively endorsing the fundraiser, which they understandably don’t want to do.
I see people saying this but without evidence that proves putting a limit on fundraising would actually allow more people to be helped overall, we are just deciding what to do based off of vibes/what sounds right. Personally, I don’t think that’s good enough when considering such a serious rule change.
especially since the admins couldn’t give exceptions without effectively endorsing the fundraiser, which they understandably don’t want to do.
For sure, it seems pretty far out of scope to expect mods here to decide who is and who isn’t entitled to extra help. I know leaving it up to the discretion of those giving poses it’s own problems, but I think it’s better (or at least more manageable) overall.
- users can post 3 times a week, asks no more than 100$ each post
I don’t like the idea of setting a limit on dollar amount. That would be a huge setback for users who are asking for help with things like rent, bills, and losing your house to an IDF terror attack.
As for limiting # of posts per week, I think the problem of visibility on that comm needs to be looked at: even before I ruined it for everyone, I noticed that donations would dry up the moment my post got too old and stopped being “hot,” even with a lot of bumps.
I’ll address the other stuff after I take a nap.
because different users can set a different default post sort it is difficult to do anything on the back-end to increase post visibility. I don’t think you ruined it for anyone i just think that right now so many people need help and the average person here may be more strained than before.
IMO as someone who frequents the mutual_aid community when I can, we should not be policing posters there with respect to how much they’ve received or how much they can ask for. A consequence of this being an anonymous online community is that there’s no way to know whether someone is being honest, and that is something we should just accept. Others have said this, and I agree with it: if you want to know you’re helping someone who needs it, join a local org.
Potentially a limit to the number of posts could be helpful. However, I understand why people desperate for help would make posts in a short period of time. I would leave that one to people in the comm who need help.
Meta posts calling out other users feels too much like a witch hunt and I believe it’s unproductive (for the reasons mentioned in paragraph 1). I feel like mods should handle grievances like that if we choose to handle it at all.
Limiting the amount requested is a fucking awful idea
Mutual aid shouldn’t have any strings attached to it, nor should asking for it have any limits.
I personally think meta posts are fine. If someone is adamant that another is ‘scamming’ - go ahead and post that shit in a separate post from their mutual aid request.
users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment
dumb
do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?
- no there shouldn’t be any sort of limits or conditions on mutual aid.
do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?
- no there shouldn’t be any sort of limits or conditions on mutual aid.
do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?
- no there shouldn’t be any sort of limits or conditions on mutual aid.
do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?
- no there shouldn’t be any sort of limits or conditions on mutual aid.
do you think we should allow meta posts?
- yes, if someone wants to cry about another user - let them. I don’t understand what the point of this post/discussion is even about other than the ‘X poster is living in his relative’s driveway!!’ post from a few days ago.
didn’t we LITERALLY have this same discussion half a year ago when the same thing happened and decided to let meta posts be a thing but not let those people comment on the actual mutual aid post itself???
yes but the only time the right to make meta-posts was exercised resulted in a lot of people asking for it to be changed resulting in this check-in post
Fair. Sorry, I didn’t mean to come off as I was yelling at you (and realize my OP can be read like that).
Thank you for all you do!!
Setting a limit is pointless as it’s all voluntary anyway. I want people to be honest about their needs.
I think a posting limit is good as it will give a better overall view of people’s needs in the comm. Those needs don’t typically change throughout the week unless it’s an emergency
I don’t like the idea of this, it’s very micromanagey
Name is fine
No meta posts, it’s disgusting when people attack each others credibility here and it hurts both the accused and accusers. I don’t expect people to be 100% honest here, if they feel the need to lie in order to get fed I’m not going to hold them to the same moral standard I would hold someone who’s financially stable and well fed.
tldr: NO
Im still failing to see a problem with how things are currently run. can i get more info without calling anyone out? i read thru these replies and im pretty confused about this and why things even need to change.
do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?
how tf are we equipped to know what constitutes a proper limit?do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?
how would this even help? what problem is this addressing? are people upset about scrolling by requests? those people need to just block the comm.If we’re bound and determined to “fix” the issue for comrades who just can’t stand to see people asking for money, maybe a major format change could be something like a featured megathread instead? i don’t even like that idea at all, I’m sure that idea has a major downsides but i still think it’s better than trying to limit posts.
do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?
that seems like an awful lot of work for the mods. i don’t want my donations tracked either.Furthermore, what is the endpoint of this accounting, besides eventually questioning aid receivers on the “proper use” of funds received?
do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?
i hate semantics, hate hate hate hate hate them.
do you think we should allow meta posts?
“meta” as in users attacking or questioning aid receivers, like hella super
“meta” posts as in like…directing donators and requesters to aid programs, yes!
Sticky, sidebar something that might help people get aid they didn’t know was available, or help donators wantin to direct their funds to more accountable, established aid programs might be nice.
gotta be
alla these ideas just seem like means testing with different coats of paint.Are people donating really upset about their donations not “doing what they should”? I… really think those folks need to take a deep breath and reevaluate what it means to give.
What funds spared will not prevent people needing money again; no matter how we wish it were different. No matter how “well” the receiver spends it. Offering a donation —no matter how high— is never enough payment towards the right to judge how well it is spent.
Those who want to arbitrate “proper” use of donated money should either donate to an org, or put their money where their mouth is, and post their budgets!
Then they should sit on their hands and listen, contrite, as their comrades explain sanctimoniously how their spending could be better directed towards more mutual_aid.
You might not like semantics but “mutual aid” has a meaning and key to that meaning is “mutual aid is not charity” (hence it bring mutual). Right now the mutual aid comm doesn’t really function like that, and personally I don’t think there’s way its set up could ever function as proper mutual aid - which is fine but if you’ve ever done real life mutual aid work it doesn’t look like people asking for cash donations and some cadre giving them. Like semantics or don’t, that’s the motivation.
People tend to get attached to mutual aid as a name because it’s a cool horizontalist leftist thing to do, but we don’t enact that stuff and just take the name.
Idk, I think the name still works. Right now I’m In a position where I occasionally ask for assistance, but I have an interview coming up that may change that and even allow me to give back to the community. Sometimes the mutuality just takes longer to kick in.
i see what you mean about “mutual” but if we get bogged down with semantics, even if we changed the name wouldnt we just as easily be arguing over what constitutes “emergency”? i guess we could talk about the proper meaning of ‘mutual aid’ but this is an online communist community, the current name falls closely enough to wikipedias entry which I’ll put up for all:
mutual aid
Mutual aid is an organizational model where voluntary, collaborative exchanges of resources and services for common benefit take place amongst community members to overcome social, economic, and political barriers to meeting common needs. This can include physical resources like food, clothing, or medicine, as well as services like breakfast programs or education. These groups are often built for the daily needs of their communities, but mutual aid groups are also found throughout relief efforts. Resources are shared unconditionally, contrasting this model from charity where conditions for gaining access to help are often set, such as means testing or grant stipulations. These groups often go beyond material or service exchange and are set up as a form of political participation in which people take responsibility for caring for one another and changing political conditions
Some of the things in that definition do not fit how this comm is run, youre right. i think that is natural, tho, limitations of the format, and if changes are really needed —probably my professed hatred of semantics makes it obv i don’t think they are— we should if anything strive to more closely meet the definition of mutual aid rather than force-fit the name to what it currently achieves.
real life experience, maybe relevant
I have recently gotten involved with a community farm/food pantry and been (perhaps this is my naivete showing) shocked to see some of the attitudes from the people involved casting judgement on those who line up to receive help. some attitudes of (imo) ‘buying right to judge’ prevail within the group.
one of the people donating their time (for years, mind you) expressed how upset they were by the difference in responses week-to-week, imagining the food we have to deliver wasn’t “good enough”, that there was a “hotline” (their term) of people calling each other to “stay away this time” or “call everyone, come n’ get it!” one week to the next, as sometimes we have steaks etc, and sometimes we only have vegetables or less ‘exciting’ things. i was just shocked by the attitude really. why would they care? what does it matter to them?
peeps who donate their time to the pantry get to pick out a box of food for themselves. i watched that ‘complainer’ set aside the best for themselves beforehand, biting my tongue, because hell, they’ve been offering their time for free for a decade and i don’t know what their circumstances are either. if i cared to soapbox there id judge them for judging others, but then id have to account for myself as well.
some users of the community feel that they have to make multiple posts to even be seen which makes other posts harder unless they also make multiple posts.
the point of accounting is to help posters to update their post with amount received and lock it when the need has been met so other posts can receive the aid
meta as in posts related to anything outside of posting asking for aid, comments bumping it or comments replying that they’ve send the aid which would include both posts detailing suspected scams as well as lists of non monetary aid
thank you for the explanation
of course thank you for speaking up at, after reading other commenter’s perspectives I have reached out to everyone that has used the community this month to get their feedback. we really do want to make the community as helpful and sustainable as possible for the people using it and really it seems that sticking with the current “Mods do not vet individual mutual aid requests. Donate at your own risk” is the best course of action and we will likely ban critical meta-posts of specific users going forward
input for all of these changes should prioritize c/mutual_aid users thoughts first and foremost. from what i’ve gathered reading this thread, most of these proposed changes are from users who don’t interact with c/mutual_aid or are themselves donors. this is not prioritizing the community members most impacted by these changes and instead they’re being ignored, combatted, or scared shitless by these potential changes. these changes have very real and potentially dire consequences for these users. all this doesn’t feel right at all.
some of the suggestions were from private messages from people receiving donations feeling that the current state of the community is not healthy. you are correct about the changes if any should priotritize the community members that would be most impacted. I will reach out privately to those people to see what they think should happen. Do you think that we should keep meta-posts?
reaching out to them all privately would be good. to answer your question, with how the meta-posting has gone in this thread, i personally think we shouldn’t keep meta-posts as too much harm can come from them.
i sent messages to the people who posted there this month and we will weigh their opinions on the community much more heavily than others
I agree with everything except limiting the amount requested. That seems arbitrary and would make the comm useless to people who need more than $100 (or whatever limit we would set), as emergencies often are more costly than that especially in the current economy. Imo the other requested changes would greatly improve the experience for both requestors and donators without setting a hard cap on how much someone can ask for.
This
A posting limit might be okay but I don’t think we should limit amount asked.
Tracking would be nice
No need to change the name, it’s just semantics at that point.
No meta posts, if users have actual proof of scamming, they should submit it to the mods and admins.
do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount requested?
I don’t think this is very helpful, different people will have different financial situations, and if we are trying to focus more on emergency aid, some emergencies are much more costly than others. I think this will actively encourage “spamming” at the start of a week and the comm will get flooded with requests all at once, making it much easier for some to slip through the cracks.
do you think there should be a weekly limit on amount of posts?
This one I agree with, especially with a focus on emergency aid, though I think the mods may have to make exceptions in very specific circumstances, someone having two massive disasters in one week is rare, but not unheard of. I doubt it will ever actually come up though.
do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?
I like this idea a lot. I would rather donations not be loud public displays, I don’t feel comfortable donating in such a way, but just a simple tracking system will go a long way, while not actively spotlighting anyone, plus I think seeing locked posts that have had their goals met will be good for morale.
do you think we change the name from mutual_aid to emergency aid?
I think since mutual aid is probably a bit too difficult to do over an online anonymous system like this, it is probably better phrased that way.
do you think we should allow meta posts?
I think a monthly meta thread could be good, one that enables people to ask for aid that isn’t necessarily financial, more things like advice and support. It could also be a good way to “allow” meta discussion without it taking over the comm.
I think a monthly meta thread could be good, one that enables people to ask for aid that isn’t necessarily financial, more things like advice and support. It could also be a good way to “allow” meta discussion without it taking over the comm.
I like this idea. A regular megathread of advice and resources would actually feel more like mutual aid than just charity.
users donate and report the post with the amount donated, mods note it or report it with a message indicating they donated so a mod can comment
i think this could be used for potential harm to user’s aid posts. i remember c/mutual_aid users mentioning an issue of people not following through with aid after messaging for their details. what would happen if someone reports that they sent funds to a user when they actually didn’t? would confirmation default to the person receiving aid?
do you think mods should keep track of amounts received via user reports after donating?
i don’t think mods should but i don’t have an alternative that i can think of right now to fully answer this question.
With this proposed system people who say they sent funds and don’t will first be warned and then sitebanned.
How can you verify they did send them?
If its just asking the recipient to verify wouldnt it just be he said she said?
If someone repeatedly comments on the post to say they donated and the recipient says they didn’t get it we would take action. in the event of a user reporting the post with something to the effect of “i’d like to donate to this please notify” then we can do the same thing.
You are correct that at the end of the day it is he said she said but we would establish matrix communication for the sending of proof
we would establish matrix communication for the sending of proof
I hate to say it but fabricating screenshots is so easy that I struggle to believe such a system could work if used in bad faith by even one person
I hate to say it but fabricating screenshots is so easy
to demonstrate:
please pet my nose tho
:carrot:
that’s true but I hope that both users pledging to donate and those asking for money would be engaging with the site in good-faith
the incentive to dispute that a donation occurred is the limit. if there’s no arbitrary limit per post/week imposed, then both parties can engage in good faith
I just don’t think, especially with money at stake, that it’s reasonable to hope that every single user who ever uses the comm will do so in good faith, or be obvious enough in their bad faith to be sussed out. And even one person with an axe to grind could potentially get someone banned with fabricated evidence. I think we have to build systems that are resilient to abuse where possible and the strong possibility of disciplining a user in need of help feels worse to me than allowing someone to collect donos and not update the post to reflect them. I guess you could say that any mod action being taken requires multiple reports from established accounts showing a pattern of behavior, not just one and done. That would help.
but frankly sending screenshots back and forth offsite also overcomplicates the process of both donating and receiving donations. It just doesn’t feel like a well fleshed out plan to me
No.
Maybe?
Yes.
No.
No.Hey I’m glad to see this situation getting attention but starting out the discussion post with
This post is to discuss the mutual aid community’s rule of allowing meta posts: mutual aid as a community, those making posts in it and those commenting on posts.
We are considering removing the exception allowing meta posts but wanted to involve the userbase before committing to a change.>
Please comment with any thoughts, feelings, or suggestions regarding this change.
and then turning around and saying “okay here’s a list of sweeping changes based on feedback” feels like a major shift. I didn’t post any generic suggestions about what to do with the comm because I thought the post was intended to be specifically about one rule changing
anyhow, of that list:
- No
- Yes.
- Lean no. Depends on how its implemented.
- Don’t care
- Yes
This includes various suggestions made by users and mods both on this post, others and the mod chat
my reading comprehension might just be bad on this tbf. I read it 3x before realizing the second half of that first quoted line I posted was opening up the floor to a broader discussion.
anyhow, I think slap-dash tracking of donos could easily end up worse than doing nothing. we don’t want to deanonymize people more than necessary, we don’t want the system to be exploitable for harassment of specific users or be hard to navigate.
similarly leaving no avenue for complaints seems bad. The (very uncommon, less than once a month) meta-posts attract so much attention because there are some genuine scams going on, not just because they’re bringing out reactionary sentiments (though there always seem to be at least one or two comments that go too far). And unless mods are going to police what is and isn’t a scam, social pressure and metaposts are the only outlet this stuff has. It’s a very thorny thing to balance but I’m glad we’re trying to improve it
Honestly looking back over this thread makes me afraid to even ask for aid anymore. I had no idea it was this much of an issue simmering under the surface and that worries the fuck out of me because I rely on this place to keep myself fed. It honestly feels like fixing something that wasn’t broken.
the community has ebbed and flowed with the amount of use and understandably so it is being used more than in the past. the intent of the changes is to try and reduce barriers to those posting in the community and make it more fair for all posters. this is a follow up to the change we made no longer site pinning individual mutual aid posts and dealing with the increasing amount of meta-posting regarding the community and those that use it.
I think any changes at this point will ultimately reduce the amount that mutual aid users receive so I am against them.
The recipients need to be prioritized over everything else. Onlookers/bystanders don’t belong in this discussion at all. The goal should be to maximize aid, not make it easier to ignore cries for help.
so we should continue to allow meta-posts?
I think no for now
If people think something is a scam they can take it up with the mods. No need to make meta posts. We’re not going to shame the needy anymore than society already does. I don’t want mutual_aid turn into some liberal means tested “hmmmm but are you really poor?” BS. Nope. On the other hand I think we are too small to be a reliable source of aid for people. I don’t know what the solution is, but whatever is decided I hope we don’t turn to the dehumanising judgement practices that cause this kind of desperation in the first place.
none of the changes would be with the intent of placing means testing on users posting there, more so trying to standardize it so that everyone can get a fair chance of being seen there while trying to make space for non-monetary resources to be shared.
That’s good. Thank you for trying to make it more fair.
I think things should stay the way they are. Maybe there should just be a limit on how often someone can post. It’s a bit unsettling to see some people asking for help week after week, it starts to feel like the help is already factored into their budget and not like an emergency fund.
I don’t say this from a place of ignorance. I grew up in deep poverty myself, and I genuinely wish for all people to be lifted out of poverty and to have all their needs met. Otherwise, I wouldn’t call myself a communist.
