As Adorno said (and I paraphrase): There is no right life in the wrong circumstances.

On another note: Perhaps you can join a cooperative (if it’s a thing where you live). Your money would help a good cause, you‘d get a small sum every year.

I choose to work, be super frugal and quit work at 35 and am now 58. So the quiet thing was being able to quit work and live off the capital i had invested and buy a small cheaper cottage ina small rural town…

Still being frugal now allows me to do that and enjoy the things I enjoy. Cycling, reading, pottering in the small workshop, annoying my GF with dad jokes and helping her with the donkey work on the garden :)

Is working pay check to pay check for mega corp any less ethical then investing any small surplus in them ? In the world we live in, to get the basics like food, shelter etc we need to bear our ass to capitalism, if we don’t we get to suffer the razor worse dildo of consequence.

You won’t get rich but u might have an extra buffer i make more then enough and get to donate small annual surplus to worthwhile organizations.

At some stage it will come crashing down but until then…

All the best and I hope it works out.

I work at a wage job to make money. I buy things with the money I make. I don’t like this system, but I’m coerced into participating in it, so I do my best to survive within it. Investing is a part of that, to me it is ethically no different than wage earning and buying things. I’m not going to destroy myself simply to protest my enclosure. I can do a lot more to help others when I’m closer to thriving than I am to impoverishment, and “this system sucks and shouldn’t exist” is IMO a more powerful statement coming from someone who would otherwise seem to benefit from that system.

If you do end up investing, a while back I put together a short guide on how to make it ever so slightly less bad for the environment.

Though with how crazy everything is, it is a bit of a risk to invest into the stock market.

An alternative option might be to invest in a CD with a credit union, which would have a safe guaranteed return, but usually at a lower rate. Alliant (an online only credit union) usually has pretty good CD rates compared to brick and mortar ones.

Perhaps a mixture of both methods would give good results, only investing the percentage into the stock market that you’re willing to risk.

Similar discussion a while ago

Excellent question. I suffer from the same issue. In my case the only real investment I have is real estate because I need a house to live. But when I’m at a point where I have a surplus I think I’m tempted to do some investing too. It’s the system we fight but also the system we live in. And overall you can help bring money to worthwhile causes by investing in some areas. But it sure is a complicated issue, thank you for raising it.

I’ve participated in quite a few corporate votes that stopped companies being extra evil.

Shareholders are the true power in this world.

Just want to add a couple more options to the good comments already made. Remember that you can also save money by putting at least some of it into a traditional savings account. Those are available at a variety of financial institutions, so you might be comfortable with a traditional or internet bank, or you might look for a credit union. Each will have different interest rates. Another option is government bonds, which are available at both the federal and local (municipal) level.

I’m no expert so I’m not providing financial advice about whether to use any of these options, just noting they are also options that you might want to look into. I also don’t think it’s a bad idea to buy shares of ETFs. I agree with you and others that we have to be able to afford to live in the world that exists today, while also working to change it. All of these options have different levels of risk and return, so I think many people advocate for using multiple options just from a sound financial perspective.

From a solarpunk lens, these options might or might not be better suited to your ethical/economic/social point of view. Banks might turn around and invest your deposits in the same equities that you might wish to avoid. Some also use the deposits to provide home, personal, and small business loans to local residents and groups. You might not want to lend your money to some governments today, but perhaps other local ones might feel more worth it. (Again, I’m no expert in municipal bonds and whether they’re a good idea to invest in, just noting they exist.)

Using more than one means of savings could also make you feel less dependent on one over time, more comfortable shifting your resources if you need to, and less likely to become overly motivated in a social direction you don’t believe in due to your financial interests. So just added food for thought.

Unfortunately, we’re forced to survive while inside several unethical systems. Especially since you may have more trouble making enough money to survive than others, investing is necessary for you. Maybe, eventually, there is more of an ethical choice down there line if you were to have more wealth than you need to be comfortable, but that isn’t a concern now.

Invest, live, and if you end up with a surplus of wealth, share it with those who need it, fund liberatory projects (mutual aid, bail funds, etc), and don’t get caught in the consumption cycle.

As for the strategic questions: investing is complex. Most basic strategies assume continued growth in the long run, but it is possible to make all kinds of choices. Equities are not the only option. Take the time to research investment strategies and then providers. Roboadvisors can be a helpful starting point.

A) I can’t answer that question, but just so everyone’s clear: the money you invest in megacorps doesn’t go to megacorps. It goes to other shareholders that owned shares of the megacorps and a small percentage would go to the trading platform and the capital market itself. If you’re investing in ETFs, the company that manages the fund will likely get a small management cut too. Either way, it mostly goes to people seeking to lower or eliminate their stake on the companies you invest in. It’s more like a horse racing thing: You bet on a horse, but the horse doesn’t get your money.

B) Yes, all investments are gambles, to an extent. The only difference is the different levels of risk and reward. And in finances, betting a certain amount against what you hope for if called “hedging”. It basically means “I want X to happen, but if Y happens, I want my ass covered too.” This concept may be useful to you.

Personally, many consider me an anarchist because I don’t believe in the legitimacy of any power that anyone holds against anyone else whatsoever (except my mom’s), but I’m also a pragmatist. The world will follow its course and we can only do so much. We can hold our beliefs and make the marginally small pushes we can afford to make towards a world we believe is better, but we also must survive and ensure our own stability given the current state of the world as is. That means adapting to current reality.

Now, be warned. If your investments do really well and you find yourself swimming with money in the future, there comes a point where money becomes poison. The way I see it there are only 3 amounts of money: Not enough, comfortable enough and too much.

Good for you for making ends meet. Allow yourself to feel proud of your accomplishment. Surviving in this economy is no easy thing.

Source: I’m a financial consultant that holds virtually no assets.

Edit: Horse racing for clarity and typo.

There was a hank green video a while back where he bought voting shares in a big pharma company, then voted against raising prices on drugs.

I’m a nobody when it comes to money, but I remeber that as feeling, “more ethical”.

Society as it currently exists is not designed for your survival while following your ideals - you are not obligated to suffer by forcing a square block into a circle hole

Working towards a better world does not conflict with living in the world as it stands. Just keep working towards widening that hole.

A) As the previous commenter said, if you buy ETF shares from someone who is selling them, you are not financially supporting the corporation. Only buying their IPO would do that. These corporations will succeed or fail, do evil shit or do not-so-evil shit, based on supply and demand (and subsidies, and lobbying…), not based on whether you personally own shares in them.

B) You can’t predict the future. Common sense says that equities’ historical growth cannot continue forever. It’s up to you to decide whether the risk of equity investing makes sense for your personal situation and investment time horizon. Diversifying your investments across asset classes (equities, bonds, precious metals, CDs, fruit trees, real estate…) is probably the most assured way to reduce volatility, and it may or may not result in higher risk-adjusted returns, but this probably won’t translate to higher gross returns compared to investing in equities alone (unless the stock market crashes while you are still invested and never recovers).

Probably the strongest case for investing in equities would be: If you expect the next stock market crash to be accompanied by the end of the monetary system as we know it, then any cash that you currently have lying around will become worthless at that point whether you invest it in equities or not. (So you might as well invest it and make some money while you can.)

Probably the strongest case for NOT investing in equities would be the facts that the growth in equities cannot continue indefinitely and that investing any extra money in tangible assets (e.g. land to grow your own food, solar panels and batteries, or other infrastructure that contributes to your independence from the system while reducing your ongoing expenses) is of real benefit to you regardless of what the stock market does.

Source: I grow fruit trees. You’d be surprised at how many parallels there are to financial investments. (Pro tip: the risk-free rate of return is the banana yield that a given area of land could produce.)

Every case is unique, so you need to do what you think is best for your specific case. I personally mostly perfer to invest into things that lower my ongoing costs and not things that increase my income. In the end time is the most valuable thing you have, so think about it from that perspective.

There must be plenty of non-evil companies doing healthy business and giving out good dividends that you could invest in. It would be a bad idea only if you are in an arms race against other investors and they’d make more money investing in evil companies.

Risk seems unavoidable, and you would have to be deliberate in deciding what to invest in. Real estate in climate-change-facing regions too ended up being a risky investment.