My understanding is that Russia has been heavily shaped by the Western-orchestrated collapse of the USSR and the ongoing isolation of Russia to keep it on the periphery
Correct, but it’s not 90’s now, they had spend quite significant effort to change this and dialmat dictate we acknowledge that they are now not only not isolated but one of two main forces driving antiimperialism and global south cooperation. They also, while still remained capitalist, reversed much of the neoliberal organisation from back then.
starting a war was the best way to defend Russia or to protect ethnic Russians in Ukraine.
It’s not that i disagree with you, but they did tried everything else first but Ukraine western handlers were pushing for war hard to the point of treating formal international agreements they signed and ratified like empty scraps of paper. Again, they only intervened literal days before AFU planned offensive that would end with a massacre in Donbass.
give humanitarian refugee status to ethnic Russians
Majority of Ukrainian citizens who emigrated from Ukraine since 2014, did so to Russia. Russia did exactly what you said.
and rescue them peacefully for resettlement in Crimea
Again, Russia taken in literal millions of people running from economic and later military violence by UA government. Also it’s very similar argument as “why they couldn’t just resettle Palestinians to Jordan”. People of Donbass clearly decided their selfdetermination in 2014 (same as Crimea). Donbass also got a long history of not wanting to be in Ukraine, Lenin in one of his biggest L’s just told them to shut up and suck it up, Stalin did the same in 30’s (with more reason though), and same was in 1991 and 2014. They simply don’t want to be Ukrainian and have over a century of consistent history of it.
and then defensively prepare for any aggression.
This is also what USSR and later Russia do since 1945 (or really in various conditions since 1800). Needles to say, it didn’t worked.
I don’t understand the connection people have with their land
Fair enough, but it is one of the main components of nationalism, arguably one of most important ideological constructs of modern world, and was equally important for millenia before. Probably originated in neolithic sunk cost effort or something like that :)
I’m probably trivializing the trauma of moving people around to keep them safe and improve their economic conditions
I also have mixed feelings about that, i definitely do acnowledge what you mention here, but also i do support resettlement in certain situations (like most of WW2 and post WW2 by USSR), i guess it largely depend on situation. USSR did not had any genocidal intent doing that (as lack of Latvians living on the shores of Arctic sea clearly shows), and it was even the opposite - imagine the shitshow in the 90’s without post war resettlements of Germans, Poles etc.
Again, Russia taken in literal millions of people running from economic and later military violence by UA government. Also it’s very similar argument as “why they couldn’t just resettle Palestinians to Jordan”.
The clear distinction here is that Russia could resettle literally everyone, whereas Jordan absolutely couldn’t. If the Palestinians were displaced into Jordan they’d be an impoverished refugee class, separated from friends and family, no employment prospects, and be totally reliant on humanitarian aid. I think Russia actually could handle the resettlement without the same material limitations.
It would come at the cost of being dispossessed from their land, but they’d be alive and healthy and their families would be whole.
Resettlement seems worth it, to me. But ultimately you raise the most important point with:
People of Donbass clearly decided their selfdetermination in 2014 (same as Crimea). Donbass also got a long history of not wanting to be in Ukraine, Lenin in one of his biggest L’s just told them to shut up and suck it up, Stalin did the same in 30’s (with more reason though), and same was in 1991 and 2014. They simply don’t want to be Ukrainian and have over a century of consistent history of it.
The people have decided they’d rather face death and dismemberment and loss of their families than be dispossessed of their land. I fundamentally don’t understand that, but I can try to respect it. Personally I don’t think it was worth it and I wish they had chosen differently because I think fewer people would have died, but this is what they chose and I have no choice but to support it.
Besides, it looks like Russia actually did make the best strategic choice. They might just win this thing.
The clear distinction here is that Russia could resettle literally everyone, whereas Jordan absolutely couldn’t.
No, that’s no difference. You could add Egypt, Syria, etc. Point is, you want to solve the “problem” by exiling undesirable people from the country ruled by nazis. 3rd Reich, Israel, Ukraine, it’s the same situation. You want to explicitly appease nazis, i don’t know how much more straight i have to say this since you apparently does understand that not every resettlement is equal and the same, but you keep ignoring the base issue here in favour of liberal “nonviolence” and pacifism which ends up actually feeding the nazis.
You can’t, though, because that means splitting up families and communities and scattering them across several countries and continents. Plus, even if they were split up, those countries would still struggle to provide them with jobs and housing, they’d still be reliant on humanitarian assistance and be relegated to an underclass of permanent refugees.
This is still very clearly distinct from Russia, where no one would need to be separated because they’d all be in the same country. It really isn’t the same situation.
you keep ignoring the base issue here in favour of liberal “nonviolence” and pacifism which ends up actually feeding the nazis.
Please don’t put words into my mouth, I am not a liberal passivist.
What I think is that fewer people, overall, would have died or been injured or lost family or endured economic hardship by being resettled. I think avoiding war is good, not because violence is inherently bad, but because it has lead to more suffering for people who don’t deserve it. Russia could have absorbed everyone into its economy, they’d have had jobs and housing and all the necessities of modern life. I just think they’d have been better off by giving up the land to move farther East than staying to fight.
Make no mistake, I try to respect their decision to stay and fight for their land. I just can’t understand it. Land just seems unimportant to me when there are other options (which is distinct from the Palestinians, for the reasons I explained). I am a postmodern subject that has been so thoroughly alienated from land that I can’t even imagine caring about it.
But this doesn’t come from some obsession with nonviolence or passivism. I still critically support Russia in their struggle against US/NATO imperialism, after all.
It’s a moot point anyway, because it looks like the invasion is paying off. This is why I’m not in charge of anything.
Correct, but it’s not 90’s now, they had spend quite significant effort to change this and dialmat dictate we acknowledge that they are now not only not isolated but one of two main forces driving antiimperialism and global south cooperation. They also, while still remained capitalist, reversed much of the neoliberal organisation from back then.
It’s not that i disagree with you, but they did tried everything else first but Ukraine western handlers were pushing for war hard to the point of treating formal international agreements they signed and ratified like empty scraps of paper. Again, they only intervened literal days before AFU planned offensive that would end with a massacre in Donbass.
Majority of Ukrainian citizens who emigrated from Ukraine since 2014, did so to Russia. Russia did exactly what you said.
Again, Russia taken in literal millions of people running from economic and later military violence by UA government. Also it’s very similar argument as “why they couldn’t just resettle Palestinians to Jordan”. People of Donbass clearly decided their selfdetermination in 2014 (same as Crimea). Donbass also got a long history of not wanting to be in Ukraine, Lenin in one of his biggest L’s just told them to shut up and suck it up, Stalin did the same in 30’s (with more reason though), and same was in 1991 and 2014. They simply don’t want to be Ukrainian and have over a century of consistent history of it.
This is also what USSR and later Russia do since 1945 (or really in various conditions since 1800). Needles to say, it didn’t worked.
Fair enough, but it is one of the main components of nationalism, arguably one of most important ideological constructs of modern world, and was equally important for millenia before. Probably originated in neolithic sunk cost effort or something like that :)
I also have mixed feelings about that, i definitely do acnowledge what you mention here, but also i do support resettlement in certain situations (like most of WW2 and post WW2 by USSR), i guess it largely depend on situation. USSR did not had any genocidal intent doing that (as lack of Latvians living on the shores of Arctic sea clearly shows), and it was even the opposite - imagine the shitshow in the 90’s without post war resettlements of Germans, Poles etc.
The clear distinction here is that Russia could resettle literally everyone, whereas Jordan absolutely couldn’t. If the Palestinians were displaced into Jordan they’d be an impoverished refugee class, separated from friends and family, no employment prospects, and be totally reliant on humanitarian aid. I think Russia actually could handle the resettlement without the same material limitations.
It would come at the cost of being dispossessed from their land, but they’d be alive and healthy and their families would be whole.
Resettlement seems worth it, to me. But ultimately you raise the most important point with:
The people have decided they’d rather face death and dismemberment and loss of their families than be dispossessed of their land. I fundamentally don’t understand that, but I can try to respect it. Personally I don’t think it was worth it and I wish they had chosen differently because I think fewer people would have died, but this is what they chose and I have no choice but to support it.
Besides, it looks like Russia actually did make the best strategic choice. They might just win this thing.
No, that’s no difference. You could add Egypt, Syria, etc. Point is, you want to solve the “problem” by exiling undesirable people from the country ruled by nazis. 3rd Reich, Israel, Ukraine, it’s the same situation. You want to explicitly appease nazis, i don’t know how much more straight i have to say this since you apparently does understand that not every resettlement is equal and the same, but you keep ignoring the base issue here in favour of liberal “nonviolence” and pacifism which ends up actually feeding the nazis.
You can’t, though, because that means splitting up families and communities and scattering them across several countries and continents. Plus, even if they were split up, those countries would still struggle to provide them with jobs and housing, they’d still be reliant on humanitarian assistance and be relegated to an underclass of permanent refugees.
This is still very clearly distinct from Russia, where no one would need to be separated because they’d all be in the same country. It really isn’t the same situation.
Please don’t put words into my mouth, I am not a liberal passivist.
What I think is that fewer people, overall, would have died or been injured or lost family or endured economic hardship by being resettled. I think avoiding war is good, not because violence is inherently bad, but because it has lead to more suffering for people who don’t deserve it. Russia could have absorbed everyone into its economy, they’d have had jobs and housing and all the necessities of modern life. I just think they’d have been better off by giving up the land to move farther East than staying to fight.
Make no mistake, I try to respect their decision to stay and fight for their land. I just can’t understand it. Land just seems unimportant to me when there are other options (which is distinct from the Palestinians, for the reasons I explained). I am a postmodern subject that has been so thoroughly alienated from land that I can’t even imagine caring about it.
But this doesn’t come from some obsession with nonviolence or passivism. I still critically support Russia in their struggle against US/NATO imperialism, after all.
It’s a moot point anyway, because it looks like the invasion is paying off. This is why I’m not in charge of anything.