They were planning this in the first place, with them wanting a justification for increase. SMO was a response to that. I already addressed this.
Planning does not equal doing. Trump’s notion of increased spending among NATO members was literally laughed at when he suggested it in his first term. The SMO changed the equation for Europe and made them willing to do it when they previously weren’t.
It literally has not. They were already primed, in governance and acting out political violence. Literally before the Ukrainian conflict they were used as forces against insurgents in a genocide of Eastern Ukraine. This was pointed out in the copypasta I sent.
While Ukraine did have those tendencies prior to the SMO, remember that Zelensky was initially elected on a platform of ending the Ukranian Civil War and making Azob stand down. While he had failed to do this, it nevertheless showed that the Ukranian people did not broadly have the thirst for violence that the far-right Azov battalion had - but the SMO changed this equation too, linking far right nationalism and fascism with self defense in the minds of the Ukrainians. Instead of being de-nazified, the SMO accelerated Ukraine’s fascist shift, turning it from a nation with a radical foreign-backed far right fringe to a nation with a radical foreign-backed far right majority.
“Planning does not equal doing. Trump’s notion of increased spending among NATO members was literally laughed at when he suggested it in his first term. The SMO changed the equation for Europe and made them willing to do it when they previously weren’t.”
Except countries were already beginning to act on it in forms of austerity and assigning funding to rearmament and militarization, which Ukraine already violated an accord to prevent that after they had been couped by fascist paramilitaries that had an intelligence support/presence and aid since the 60s as documented literally by the fucking C.I.A itself. Waiting for someone to pull the trigger while they have a gun on you is some pure lib-shit idealism. Of course they’re going to SMO to protect their nation. Are you insane? I literally don’t understand the core argument here where yes Putin is at fault for literally invading a nation that had a coup from an imperialist hegemony that had literally been planning and arming for an invasion supported by the leader of said hegemony’s intelligence agency? Like the fuck?
You’re also literally fucking wrong when you look at an actual chart of military spending. Shit goes all the way back to 2017-2018, lmfao. WAY before Ukraine was invaded and…after the coup LMAO.
“remember that Zelensky was initially elected on a platform of ending the Ukranian Civil War and making Azob stand down” platform does not mean a single fucking thing with imperialist intelligence agency pulling your strings. Now he’s waging an existential war to the last man and woman for the sake of NATO and will where America has already begun to lose faith after securing nearly half of their resources.
Also why the fuck are we downplaying the amount of Nazis in their military and government? What is this shit? They literally were waging a civil war and literal genocide against Russian-speakers in Eastern Ukraine and murdering trade unionists and communists WITH SUPPORT OF THE WESTERN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES FROM THE 60S BACK. That’s fringe to you? That’s a fringe-minority? What the fuck are you literally talking about?
You keep repeating things that I’m not contesting, as though you think that they run counter to my argument. Putting US support for far right extremists in caps lock doesn’t change the fact that Russia’s Special Military Operation also massively empowered those extremists and reinvigorated NATO as a global military alliance.
Oh and Russia’s moves in Ukraine started with the takeover of Crimea. That military move can be rationally defended as the counterreaction to it from the west was relatively small (the area on the graph you helpfully circled), but the full-scale invasion cannot be defended on the same grounds because it sparked a much larger response (the area to the right of what you circled).
Except what I did put in caps-lock changes entirely the reason for the SMO which you keep ignoring. The results are meaningless. The reason behind it is.
Putting US support for far right extremists in caps lock doesn’t change the fact that Russia’s Special Military Operation also massively empowered those extremists and reinvigorated NATO as a global military alliance.
Any resistance of any type will embolden imperialists and examples of this are numerous. In other words, Imperialists will never back off even after being defeated(ex Cuba, Yemen, Vietnam after defeating the french). Saying that as an argument against the SMO is just nonsense and even foolish.
Are you really that naive? Do you really think that any resistance will not cause the imperialists to go wild?
So why doesn’t China just invade Taiwan already? Probably because they recognize that getting stuck in a grinding quagmire that costs hundreds of thousands of lives and only results in your enemies pouring even more resources into opposing you isn’t the right tactic for the situation, so they stick to innuendo and military exercises and diplomacy and playing the long game.
The SMO has been a failure on its own terms. Russia may have avoided the worst of the consequences that the West wanted to inflict on it via its strengthening relationship with China, but the simple fact is that Russians are less safe today than they were before they escalated the conflict, and I believe that Putin had better options available to him but chose instead to play right into NATO’s hands. Even just maintaining the 2014-2022 status quo in Ukraine would have been preferable to Russia than what they have now.
So why doesn’t China just invade Taiwan already? Probably because they recognize that getting stuck in a grinding quagmire that costs hundreds of thousands of lives and only results in your enemies pouring even more resources into opposing you isn’t the right tactic for the situation, so they stick to innuendo and military exercises and diplomacy and playing the long game.
You are literally making shit up with your false equivalence. Ukraine and Taiwan are not the same. You can find clear differences just by looking at each countries location and asking yourself how the West will build logistics to push weaponry into each nation.
The SMO has been a failure on its own terms. Russia may have avoided the worst of the consequences that the West wanted to inflict on it via its strengthening relationship with China, but the simple fact is that Russians are less safe today than they were before they escalated the conflict, and I believe that Putin had better options available to him but chose instead to play right into NATO’s hands. Even just maintaining the 2014-2022 status quo in Ukraine would have been preferable to Russia than what they have now.
This is just straight up fiction. Now, I understand @666@lemmygrad.ml frustration with you. You are unwilling to tackle this in good faith and choose to live in fantasy land. Also, you are actively diverting attention from the imperialists as if it was Russia own fault to avoid this scenario. As 666 said before, NATO is an imperialist organization and inciting conflicts is what they do best.
Ahh, what an arrogant person you are. Liberalism and Western propaganda really rot people’s ability to think.
Oh, no worries. I was following up your discussion with the other arrogant person and got angered at the way he treated you.
Thanks for your good work comrade. Your comments surrounding this topic are very helpful for people that are humble enough to listen. It disappoints me how prevalent western exceptionalism is with liberals/ultras or whatever that arrogant guy is.
I never said that the imperialists didn’t set the parameters here. Of course they funded a color revolution and of course Russia had to respond. But Putin chose the worst response he could have chosen and now everything’s worse for Russia than it was before.
You accuse me of living in a fantasy land, but the fact is that I’m looking at all of the pieces on the board and making a judgement. You on the other hand are ignoring all of the evidence that goes against the conclusion that you had when this entire thing started.
It’s not even like I’m disagreeing with you that much. We are probably 90-95% in agreement. I just look at the results Russia got for the choice that it made and see a tragic mistake.
But Putin chose the worst response he could have chosen and now everything’s worse for Russia than it was before.
That’s the problem with westerners filled to the brim with western exceptionalism. Plenty of comrades have tried to explain with evidence why your position fails to consider plenty of information that explain the material conditions leading to SMO but you chose to be arrogantly dismissive about it. Then, after rudely dismissing other comrades efforts, you spew nonstop nonsense to avoid facing the facts that people throughout this thread shared with you.
There is nothing but western arrogance from your responses.
It’s not even like I’m disagreeing with you that much. We are probably 90-95% in agreement. I just look at the results Russia got for the choice that it made and see a tragic mistake.
With what you kindly shown us throughout this thread, I doubt it. In fact, it is so easy to end up with positions like yours if we carefully ignore plenty of facts and historical context. We have seen plenty of westerners with exceptionalism do this all the time to criticize along with the fascists/liberals any resistance from the oppressed. From Palestine, Cuba, Rusia and China, people like you will arrogantly say “BUT I kNow A better wAy becAuSe I KnOw BeTter!” or “IT iS a FaiLuRe beCauSe thEy Didn’t Do IT mY pERfect wAy”.
What a disappointment. You should really work on that arrogance and shed away your exceptionalism.
Honestly my bad, I thought you were talking with someone I blocked or blocked me. Disregard what I said. They just appeared now in my logs because lemmy is fucked.
Planning does not equal doing. Trump’s notion of increased spending among NATO members was literally laughed at when he suggested it in his first term. The SMO changed the equation for Europe and made them willing to do it when they previously weren’t.
While Ukraine did have those tendencies prior to the SMO, remember that Zelensky was initially elected on a platform of ending the Ukranian Civil War and making Azob stand down. While he had failed to do this, it nevertheless showed that the Ukranian people did not broadly have the thirst for violence that the far-right Azov battalion had - but the SMO changed this equation too, linking far right nationalism and fascism with self defense in the minds of the Ukrainians. Instead of being de-nazified, the SMO accelerated Ukraine’s fascist shift, turning it from a nation with a radical foreign-backed far right fringe to a nation with a radical foreign-backed far right majority.
“Planning does not equal doing. Trump’s notion of increased spending among NATO members was literally laughed at when he suggested it in his first term. The SMO changed the equation for Europe and made them willing to do it when they previously weren’t.”
Except countries were already beginning to act on it in forms of austerity and assigning funding to rearmament and militarization, which Ukraine already violated an accord to prevent that after they had been couped by fascist paramilitaries that had an intelligence support/presence and aid since the 60s as documented literally by the fucking C.I.A itself. Waiting for someone to pull the trigger while they have a gun on you is some pure lib-shit idealism. Of course they’re going to SMO to protect their nation. Are you insane? I literally don’t understand the core argument here where yes Putin is at fault for literally invading a nation that had a coup from an imperialist hegemony that had literally been planning and arming for an invasion supported by the leader of said hegemony’s intelligence agency? Like the fuck?
You’re also literally fucking wrong when you look at an actual chart of military spending. Shit goes all the way back to 2017-2018, lmfao. WAY before Ukraine was invaded and…after the coup LMAO.
“remember that Zelensky was initially elected on a platform of ending the Ukranian Civil War and making Azob stand down” platform does not mean a single fucking thing with imperialist intelligence agency pulling your strings. Now he’s waging an existential war to the last man and woman for the sake of NATO and will where America has already begun to lose faith after securing nearly half of their resources.
Also why the fuck are we downplaying the amount of Nazis in their military and government? What is this shit? They literally were waging a civil war and literal genocide against Russian-speakers in Eastern Ukraine and murdering trade unionists and communists WITH SUPPORT OF THE WESTERN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES FROM THE 60S BACK. That’s fringe to you? That’s a fringe-minority? What the fuck are you literally talking about?
You keep repeating things that I’m not contesting, as though you think that they run counter to my argument. Putting US support for far right extremists in caps lock doesn’t change the fact that Russia’s Special Military Operation also massively empowered those extremists and reinvigorated NATO as a global military alliance.
Oh and Russia’s moves in Ukraine started with the takeover of Crimea. That military move can be rationally defended as the counterreaction to it from the west was relatively small (the area on the graph you helpfully circled), but the full-scale invasion cannot be defended on the same grounds because it sparked a much larger response (the area to the right of what you circled).
Except what I did put in caps-lock changes entirely the reason for the SMO which you keep ignoring. The results are meaningless. The reason behind it is.
Any resistance of any type will embolden imperialists and examples of this are numerous. In other words, Imperialists will never back off even after being defeated(ex Cuba, Yemen, Vietnam after defeating the french). Saying that as an argument against the SMO is just nonsense and even foolish.
Are you really that naive? Do you really think that any resistance will not cause the imperialists to go wild?
So why doesn’t China just invade Taiwan already? Probably because they recognize that getting stuck in a grinding quagmire that costs hundreds of thousands of lives and only results in your enemies pouring even more resources into opposing you isn’t the right tactic for the situation, so they stick to innuendo and military exercises and diplomacy and playing the long game.
The SMO has been a failure on its own terms. Russia may have avoided the worst of the consequences that the West wanted to inflict on it via its strengthening relationship with China, but the simple fact is that Russians are less safe today than they were before they escalated the conflict, and I believe that Putin had better options available to him but chose instead to play right into NATO’s hands. Even just maintaining the 2014-2022 status quo in Ukraine would have been preferable to Russia than what they have now.
You are literally making shit up with your false equivalence. Ukraine and Taiwan are not the same. You can find clear differences just by looking at each countries location and asking yourself how the West will build logistics to push weaponry into each nation.
This is just straight up fiction. Now, I understand @666@lemmygrad.ml frustration with you. You are unwilling to tackle this in good faith and choose to live in fantasy land. Also, you are actively diverting attention from the imperialists as if it was Russia own fault to avoid this scenario. As 666 said before, NATO is an imperialist organization and inciting conflicts is what they do best.
Ahh, what an arrogant person you are. Liberalism and Western propaganda really rot people’s ability to think.
sorry, your message appeared in my inbox just now, thought you were someone I blocked or blocked me.
Oh, no worries. I was following up your discussion with the other arrogant person and got angered at the way he treated you.
Thanks for your good work comrade. Your comments surrounding this topic are very helpful for people that are humble enough to listen. It disappoints me how prevalent western exceptionalism is with liberals/ultras or whatever that arrogant guy is.
It makes me feel not insane enough to go full on crazy on these nazi fucks on my life. I appreciate you all, always.
I never said that the imperialists didn’t set the parameters here. Of course they funded a color revolution and of course Russia had to respond. But Putin chose the worst response he could have chosen and now everything’s worse for Russia than it was before.
You accuse me of living in a fantasy land, but the fact is that I’m looking at all of the pieces on the board and making a judgement. You on the other hand are ignoring all of the evidence that goes against the conclusion that you had when this entire thing started.
It’s not even like I’m disagreeing with you that much. We are probably 90-95% in agreement. I just look at the results Russia got for the choice that it made and see a tragic mistake.
That’s the problem with westerners filled to the brim with western exceptionalism. Plenty of comrades have tried to explain with evidence why your position fails to consider plenty of information that explain the material conditions leading to SMO but you chose to be arrogantly dismissive about it. Then, after rudely dismissing other comrades efforts, you spew nonstop nonsense to avoid facing the facts that people throughout this thread shared with you.
There is nothing but western arrogance from your responses.
With what you kindly shown us throughout this thread, I doubt it. In fact, it is so easy to end up with positions like yours if we carefully ignore plenty of facts and historical context. We have seen plenty of westerners with exceptionalism do this all the time to criticize along with the fascists/liberals any resistance from the oppressed. From Palestine, Cuba, Rusia and China, people like you will arrogantly say “BUT I kNow A better wAy becAuSe I KnOw BeTter!” or “IT iS a FaiLuRe beCauSe thEy Didn’t Do IT mY pERfect wAy”.
What a disappointment. You should really work on that arrogance and shed away your exceptionalism.
Honestly my bad, I thought you were talking with someone I blocked or blocked me. Disregard what I said. They just appeared now in my logs because lemmy is fucked.