я не из калининграда@lemmy.ml (not a native english speaker, I believe)
i do not support the current administrations internal actions, as capitalism has brought nothing but injustice, suffering, poverty, crime and corruption. but i absolutely do support its foreign policy, especially regarding the ukrainian question. the putin government has evolved to become one of the most effective anti-imperialist forces on the planet and even if you ignore the terrible nature of the terrorist zelensky-regime one has to be grateful to our military for fighting the biggest enemy of mankind, america.
so lets detail the happenings that led to the current situation:
(it may be important to note that the current russian administration pushes a slightly different narrative due to sadly being a right wing state)
banderite collaborators parading in front of nazi officers
the banderites (see picture), members of the fascist “organization of ukrainian nationalists” led by stepan andreyevich bandera were a gang of rapists and murderers who collaborated with the invading german hordes and assisted them by conducting acts of terror against civilians. It is important to note that popular support for them was close to zero.
after the victory of the heroic red army, the majority of those parasites fled to the west, predominantly to canada. they received funding from american and british intelligence agencies, which were more than happy to welcome “former” nazis into their own anti-communist ranks.
another subset of the banderites remained in the ukrainian ssr and conducted a campaign of terror and sabotage against the civilian population. their bloody deeds were supported by the cia and its european puppet agencies through the so called “operation aerodynamic”.
spoiler banderites
referendum on the preservation of the ussr. its results were ignored by the anti-communists
After the illegal and undemocratic dissolution of the ussr, the leaders of those fascist gangs were glorified by the ukrainian far-right, with support from the cia. efforts to further their “rehabilitation” were primarily directed by nazi expatriates in canada. outlets such as voice of america portrayed them as “heroes”. (aerodynamic, some of these were manufactured in the U.S under Operation Mockingbird like a lot of U.S state dept. bullshit)
results of the 2004 presidential election before cia intervention. this division between neonazi northwest and pro-russian southeast is visible to this day
in 2004, the west sabotaged the ukrainian presidential elections and installed their puppet, viktor andreyevich yushchenko, through a color revolution. he was a terrible leader, not only dismantling the remaining aspects of the ukrainian economy and managing to make life even more miserable than it already was, but also granting “hero of ukraine” status to banderite leaders and holocaust perpetrators stepan bandera and roman iosifovich shukhevich.
(not adding picture of 2014 ukrainian nazis since you have already said you believe in that)
in 2014, america and the west orchestrated another coup, this time not even bothering to hide the involvement of neo-nazis. the new regime perpetrated unspeakable atrocities against the russian population, whom it consideres “subhuman,” as well as against ukrainian anti-fascists. in odessa alone, 39 people were burned alive in the local trade union building.
those developments led to the revolution in the predominantly russian populated donbass-area and the creation off the donetsk and lugansk peoples republics, as well as the referendum in crimea that led to the peninsula finally rejoining russia. from 2014 till 2022 the majority of humanitarian aid to the donbass republics came from the cprf.
the reason for the smo is the ukrainian western-aligned nazi regime violating the minsk accords by refusing to demilitarize, trying to join the fascist nato-block and murdering russian civilians for years on end. the russian government showed itself extremely lenient, to lenient even, as any sensible politician would have staged a military intervention much earlier. if you need further proof for the tyrannical nature of the kievan regime just look at the fact that zelenskiy has banned all opposition parties in his country, refuses to hold elections and effectively rules as a military dictator. furthermore he has outlawed the russian language, made any negotiation with the russian state illegal and is currently selling whatever is left of his country to the highest bidder.
combine all this with the fact that the west and its puppets need to always be opposed due to them being a cancer of humanity and you’ll get a pretty good picture of why to support the russian military.
In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia (not Putin, as historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory) is only a partial, temporary, tactical one, in the context of imperialist liberation. Russia is still a capitalist state, though, so it’s a two stage strategy: first liberate colonized bourgeois states from colonizer states, and second revolution within those liberated bourgeois states.
Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers. This occurred during Putin’s administration, which is why he is especially hated by the US. So now the support for Russia is in the context of keeping the colonizers from recolonizing it, and supporting Russia to the extent that it helps other states liberate themselves. But Russia isn’t trying to “liberate” Ukraine, at least not all of Ukraine. It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas, and it’s trying to resolve the imperialist military expansion at its border.
Nothing in this copypasta addresses my arguments, which are: a) the military forces at the command of NATO have massively increased as a direct result of the SMO and b) the amount of Nazis in Ukraine’s military and government have also massively increased as a direct result of the SMO. Regardless of whether or not the invasion could be justified, it has been a failure in all respects save for territorial acquisition.
The fact that you would even post this completely irrelevant copypasta that doesn’t address what I’m saying indicates that you’re not actually interested in arguing about this, you’re debating a liberal strawman that only exists in your head and not the communist right in front of you.
a) They were planning this in the first place, with them wanting a justification for increase. SMO was a response to that. I already addressed this.
Think it would’ve been the fault of Nazis that brutally murdered unions, communists (as we seen in Odessa) and other political opponents to turn Ukraine into a Nazi rump-state.
b.) It literally has not. They were already primed, in governance and acting out political violence. Literally before the Ukrainian conflict they were used as forces against insurgents in a genocide of Eastern Ukraine. This was pointed out in the copypasta I sent.
the reason for the smo is the ukrainian western-aligned nazi regime violating the minsk accords by refusing to demilitarize, trying to join the fascist nato-block and murdering russian civilians for years on end. the russian government showed itself extremely lenient, to lenient even, as any sensible politician would have staged a military intervention much earlier. if you need further proof for the tyrannical nature of the kievan regime just look at the fact that zelenskiy has banned all opposition parties in his country, refuses to hold elections and effectively rules as a military dictator. furthermore he has outlawed the russian language, made any negotiation with the russian state illegal and is currently selling whatever is left of his country to the highest bidder. combine all this with the fact that the west and its puppets need to always be opposed due to them being a cancer of humanity and you’ll get a pretty good picture of why to support the russian military.
They were planning this in the first place, with them wanting a justification for increase. SMO was a response to that. I already addressed this.
Planning does not equal doing. Trump’s notion of increased spending among NATO members was literally laughed at when he suggested it in his first term. The SMO changed the equation for Europe and made them willing to do it when they previously weren’t.
It literally has not. They were already primed, in governance and acting out political violence. Literally before the Ukrainian conflict they were used as forces against insurgents in a genocide of Eastern Ukraine. This was pointed out in the copypasta I sent.
While Ukraine did have those tendencies prior to the SMO, remember that Zelensky was initially elected on a platform of ending the Ukranian Civil War and making Azob stand down. While he had failed to do this, it nevertheless showed that the Ukranian people did not broadly have the thirst for violence that the far-right Azov battalion had - but the SMO changed this equation too, linking far right nationalism and fascism with self defense in the minds of the Ukrainians. Instead of being de-nazified, the SMO accelerated Ukraine’s fascist shift, turning it from a nation with a radical foreign-backed far right fringe to a nation with a radical foreign-backed far right majority.
“Planning does not equal doing. Trump’s notion of increased spending among NATO members was literally laughed at when he suggested it in his first term. The SMO changed the equation for Europe and made them willing to do it when they previously weren’t.”
Except countries were already beginning to act on it in forms of austerity and assigning funding to rearmament and militarization, which Ukraine already violated an accord to prevent that after they had been couped by fascist paramilitaries that had an intelligence support/presence and aid since the 60s as documented literally by the fucking C.I.A itself. Waiting for someone to pull the trigger while they have a gun on you is some pure lib-shit idealism. Of course they’re going to SMO to protect their nation. Are you insane? I literally don’t understand the core argument here where yes Putin is at fault for literally invading a nation that had a coup from an imperialist hegemony that had literally been planning and arming for an invasion supported by the leader of said hegemony’s intelligence agency? Like the fuck?
You’re also literally fucking wrong when you look at an actual chart of military spending. Shit goes all the way back to 2017-2018, lmfao. WAY before Ukraine was invaded and…after the coup LMAO.
“remember that Zelensky was initially elected on a platform of ending the Ukranian Civil War and making Azob stand down” platform does not mean a single fucking thing with imperialist intelligence agency pulling your strings. Now he’s waging an existential war to the last man and woman for the sake of NATO and will where America has already begun to lose faith after securing nearly half of their resources.
Also why the fuck are we downplaying the amount of Nazis in their military and government? What is this shit? They literally were waging a civil war and literal genocide against Russian-speakers in Eastern Ukraine and murdering trade unionists and communists WITH SUPPORT OF THE WESTERN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES FROM THE 60S BACK. That’s fringe to you? That’s a fringe-minority? What the fuck are you literally talking about?
You keep repeating things that I’m not contesting, as though you think that they run counter to my argument. Putting US support for far right extremists in caps lock doesn’t change the fact that Russia’s Special Military Operation also massively empowered those extremists and reinvigorated NATO as a global military alliance.
Oh and Russia’s moves in Ukraine started with the takeover of Crimea. That military move can be rationally defended as the counterreaction to it from the west was relatively small (the area on the graph you helpfully circled), but the full-scale invasion cannot be defended on the same grounds because it sparked a much larger response (the area to the right of what you circled).
Except what I did put in caps-lock changes entirely the reason for the SMO which you keep ignoring. The results are meaningless. The reason behind it is.
Putting US support for far right extremists in caps lock doesn’t change the fact that Russia’s Special Military Operation also massively empowered those extremists and reinvigorated NATO as a global military alliance.
Any resistance of any type will embolden imperialists and examples of this are numerous. In other words, Imperialists will never back off even after being defeated(ex Cuba, Yemen, Vietnam after defeating the french). Saying that as an argument against the SMO is just nonsense and even foolish.
Are you really that naive? Do you really think that any resistance will not cause the imperialists to go wild?
So why doesn’t China just invade Taiwan already? Probably because they recognize that getting stuck in a grinding quagmire that costs hundreds of thousands of lives and only results in your enemies pouring even more resources into opposing you isn’t the right tactic for the situation, so they stick to innuendo and military exercises and diplomacy and playing the long game.
The SMO has been a failure on its own terms. Russia may have avoided the worst of the consequences that the West wanted to inflict on it via its strengthening relationship with China, but the simple fact is that Russians are less safe today than they were before they escalated the conflict, and I believe that Putin had better options available to him but chose instead to play right into NATO’s hands. Even just maintaining the 2014-2022 status quo in Ukraine would have been preferable to Russia than what they have now.
So why doesn’t China just invade Taiwan already? Probably because they recognize that getting stuck in a grinding quagmire that costs hundreds of thousands of lives and only results in your enemies pouring even more resources into opposing you isn’t the right tactic for the situation, so they stick to innuendo and military exercises and diplomacy and playing the long game.
You are literally making shit up with your false equivalence. Ukraine and Taiwan are not the same. You can find clear differences just by looking at each countries location and asking yourself how the West will build logistics to push weaponry into each nation.
The SMO has been a failure on its own terms. Russia may have avoided the worst of the consequences that the West wanted to inflict on it via its strengthening relationship with China, but the simple fact is that Russians are less safe today than they were before they escalated the conflict, and I believe that Putin had better options available to him but chose instead to play right into NATO’s hands. Even just maintaining the 2014-2022 status quo in Ukraine would have been preferable to Russia than what they have now.
This is just straight up fiction. Now, I understand @666@lemmygrad.ml frustration with you. You are unwilling to tackle this in good faith and choose to live in fantasy land. Also, you are actively diverting attention from the imperialists as if it was Russia own fault to avoid this scenario. As 666 said before, NATO is an imperialist organization and inciting conflicts is what they do best.
Ahh, what an arrogant person you are. Liberalism and Western propaganda really rot people’s ability to think.
Also, Time for the copypasta!
я не из калининграда@lemmy.ml (not a native english speaker, I believe)
i do not support the current administrations internal actions, as capitalism has brought nothing but injustice, suffering, poverty, crime and corruption. but i absolutely do support its foreign policy, especially regarding the ukrainian question. the putin government has evolved to become one of the most effective anti-imperialist forces on the planet and even if you ignore the terrible nature of the terrorist zelensky-regime one has to be grateful to our military for fighting the biggest enemy of mankind, america.
so lets detail the happenings that led to the current situation:
(it may be important to note that the current russian administration pushes a slightly different narrative due to sadly being a right wing state)
banderite collaborators parading in front of nazi officers the banderites (see picture), members of the fascist “organization of ukrainian nationalists” led by stepan andreyevich bandera were a gang of rapists and murderers who collaborated with the invading german hordes and assisted them by conducting acts of terror against civilians. It is important to note that popular support for them was close to zero. after the victory of the heroic red army, the majority of those parasites fled to the west, predominantly to canada. they received funding from american and british intelligence agencies, which were more than happy to welcome “former” nazis into their own anti-communist ranks. another subset of the banderites remained in the ukrainian ssr and conducted a campaign of terror and sabotage against the civilian population. their bloody deeds were supported by the cia and its european puppet agencies through the so called “operation aerodynamic”.
spoiler banderites
referendum on the preservation of the ussr. its results were ignored by the anti-communists
After the illegal and undemocratic dissolution of the ussr, the leaders of those fascist gangs were glorified by the ukrainian far-right, with support from the cia. efforts to further their “rehabilitation” were primarily directed by nazi expatriates in canada. outlets such as voice of america portrayed them as “heroes”. (aerodynamic, some of these were manufactured in the U.S under Operation Mockingbird like a lot of U.S state dept. bullshit)
in 2004, the west sabotaged the ukrainian presidential elections and installed their puppet, viktor andreyevich yushchenko, through a color revolution. he was a terrible leader, not only dismantling the remaining aspects of the ukrainian economy and managing to make life even more miserable than it already was, but also granting “hero of ukraine” status to banderite leaders and holocaust perpetrators stepan bandera and roman iosifovich shukhevich.
(not adding picture of 2014 ukrainian nazis since you have already said you believe in that)
in 2014, america and the west orchestrated another coup, this time not even bothering to hide the involvement of neo-nazis. the new regime perpetrated unspeakable atrocities against the russian population, whom it consideres “subhuman,” as well as against ukrainian anti-fascists. in odessa alone, 39 people were burned alive in the local trade union building.
those developments led to the revolution in the predominantly russian populated donbass-area and the creation off the donetsk and lugansk peoples republics, as well as the referendum in crimea that led to the peninsula finally rejoining russia. from 2014 till 2022 the majority of humanitarian aid to the donbass republics came from the cprf.
the reason for the smo is the ukrainian western-aligned nazi regime violating the minsk accords by refusing to demilitarize, trying to join the fascist nato-block and murdering russian civilians for years on end. the russian government showed itself extremely lenient, to lenient even, as any sensible politician would have staged a military intervention much earlier. if you need further proof for the tyrannical nature of the kievan regime just look at the fact that zelenskiy has banned all opposition parties in his country, refuses to hold elections and effectively rules as a military dictator. furthermore he has outlawed the russian language, made any negotiation with the russian state illegal and is currently selling whatever is left of his country to the highest bidder. combine all this with the fact that the west and its puppets need to always be opposed due to them being a cancer of humanity and you’ll get a pretty good picture of why to support the russian military.
[Query: Do communists have to support Russia?]
@davel@lemmygrad.ml
Also, Ukraine really does have a fascism problem and has for a long time, and the coup government has materially supported it.
Nothing in this copypasta addresses my arguments, which are: a) the military forces at the command of NATO have massively increased as a direct result of the SMO and b) the amount of Nazis in Ukraine’s military and government have also massively increased as a direct result of the SMO. Regardless of whether or not the invasion could be justified, it has been a failure in all respects save for territorial acquisition.
The fact that you would even post this completely irrelevant copypasta that doesn’t address what I’m saying indicates that you’re not actually interested in arguing about this, you’re debating a liberal strawman that only exists in your head and not the communist right in front of you.
a) They were planning this in the first place, with them wanting a justification for increase. SMO was a response to that. I already addressed this.
b.) It literally has not. They were already primed, in governance and acting out political violence. Literally before the Ukrainian conflict they were used as forces against insurgents in a genocide of Eastern Ukraine. This was pointed out in the copypasta I sent.
Do we need pictures next?
Planning does not equal doing. Trump’s notion of increased spending among NATO members was literally laughed at when he suggested it in his first term. The SMO changed the equation for Europe and made them willing to do it when they previously weren’t.
While Ukraine did have those tendencies prior to the SMO, remember that Zelensky was initially elected on a platform of ending the Ukranian Civil War and making Azob stand down. While he had failed to do this, it nevertheless showed that the Ukranian people did not broadly have the thirst for violence that the far-right Azov battalion had - but the SMO changed this equation too, linking far right nationalism and fascism with self defense in the minds of the Ukrainians. Instead of being de-nazified, the SMO accelerated Ukraine’s fascist shift, turning it from a nation with a radical foreign-backed far right fringe to a nation with a radical foreign-backed far right majority.
“Planning does not equal doing. Trump’s notion of increased spending among NATO members was literally laughed at when he suggested it in his first term. The SMO changed the equation for Europe and made them willing to do it when they previously weren’t.”
Except countries were already beginning to act on it in forms of austerity and assigning funding to rearmament and militarization, which Ukraine already violated an accord to prevent that after they had been couped by fascist paramilitaries that had an intelligence support/presence and aid since the 60s as documented literally by the fucking C.I.A itself. Waiting for someone to pull the trigger while they have a gun on you is some pure lib-shit idealism. Of course they’re going to SMO to protect their nation. Are you insane? I literally don’t understand the core argument here where yes Putin is at fault for literally invading a nation that had a coup from an imperialist hegemony that had literally been planning and arming for an invasion supported by the leader of said hegemony’s intelligence agency? Like the fuck?
You’re also literally fucking wrong when you look at an actual chart of military spending. Shit goes all the way back to 2017-2018, lmfao. WAY before Ukraine was invaded and…after the coup LMAO.
“remember that Zelensky was initially elected on a platform of ending the Ukranian Civil War and making Azob stand down” platform does not mean a single fucking thing with imperialist intelligence agency pulling your strings. Now he’s waging an existential war to the last man and woman for the sake of NATO and will where America has already begun to lose faith after securing nearly half of their resources.
Also why the fuck are we downplaying the amount of Nazis in their military and government? What is this shit? They literally were waging a civil war and literal genocide against Russian-speakers in Eastern Ukraine and murdering trade unionists and communists WITH SUPPORT OF THE WESTERN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES FROM THE 60S BACK. That’s fringe to you? That’s a fringe-minority? What the fuck are you literally talking about?
You keep repeating things that I’m not contesting, as though you think that they run counter to my argument. Putting US support for far right extremists in caps lock doesn’t change the fact that Russia’s Special Military Operation also massively empowered those extremists and reinvigorated NATO as a global military alliance.
Oh and Russia’s moves in Ukraine started with the takeover of Crimea. That military move can be rationally defended as the counterreaction to it from the west was relatively small (the area on the graph you helpfully circled), but the full-scale invasion cannot be defended on the same grounds because it sparked a much larger response (the area to the right of what you circled).
Except what I did put in caps-lock changes entirely the reason for the SMO which you keep ignoring. The results are meaningless. The reason behind it is.
Any resistance of any type will embolden imperialists and examples of this are numerous. In other words, Imperialists will never back off even after being defeated(ex Cuba, Yemen, Vietnam after defeating the french). Saying that as an argument against the SMO is just nonsense and even foolish.
Are you really that naive? Do you really think that any resistance will not cause the imperialists to go wild?
So why doesn’t China just invade Taiwan already? Probably because they recognize that getting stuck in a grinding quagmire that costs hundreds of thousands of lives and only results in your enemies pouring even more resources into opposing you isn’t the right tactic for the situation, so they stick to innuendo and military exercises and diplomacy and playing the long game.
The SMO has been a failure on its own terms. Russia may have avoided the worst of the consequences that the West wanted to inflict on it via its strengthening relationship with China, but the simple fact is that Russians are less safe today than they were before they escalated the conflict, and I believe that Putin had better options available to him but chose instead to play right into NATO’s hands. Even just maintaining the 2014-2022 status quo in Ukraine would have been preferable to Russia than what they have now.
You are literally making shit up with your false equivalence. Ukraine and Taiwan are not the same. You can find clear differences just by looking at each countries location and asking yourself how the West will build logistics to push weaponry into each nation.
This is just straight up fiction. Now, I understand @666@lemmygrad.ml frustration with you. You are unwilling to tackle this in good faith and choose to live in fantasy land. Also, you are actively diverting attention from the imperialists as if it was Russia own fault to avoid this scenario. As 666 said before, NATO is an imperialist organization and inciting conflicts is what they do best.
Ahh, what an arrogant person you are. Liberalism and Western propaganda really rot people’s ability to think.