Think it would’ve been the fault of Nazis that brutally murdered unions, communists (as we seen in Odessa) and other political opponents to turn Ukraine into a Nazi rump-state.
If Putin hadn’t invaded Ukraine, NATO would be laughing off Trump’s demand to increase military spending just like they did the first time. Hell, considering how much more power Trump is weilding this time around, that could have directly lead to the US leaving NATO as he has often threatened to do.
However, Putin’s invasion completely reinvigorated the desire of other countries to be in NATO, turning the demand to increase spending from a silly political whim to a credible ultimatum. No, it isn’t solely Putin’s fault, but the SMO played directly into the American empire’s hands.
If Putin hadn’t invaded Ukraine, it would’ve been a launching ground for an invasion into Russia or forced submission. Trump isn’t wielding any more power than Biden who also demanded increased military spending.
NATO was always an imperialist organization made up of colonizer states eager to form a bloc against the spread of “gommunist USSR” which no longer exists. So now it is an entity that functions to serve the imperialists of the western hegemony. This was shown when Ukraine was couped by far-right nationalists with assistance from western intelligence to make a entity right on the edge of Russia’s border when it began distancing itself from the West. I’d argue Ukraine becoming a Nazi state was more of the fault here than anything Putin ever did.
Which, weirdly, Ukraine had a lot of support from nato states before in their little nazi adventure?? I wonder what that means.
Check the copypasta. Yes, very much so. With explicit U.S support all the way back to the 60s leading up to the violation of the minsk accords and fascist takeover. Classic imperialism.
Okay yeah I can see why you sent the text dump, you were trying to specify that the Americans were planning on pushing some colour revolution bullshit within the region which is what incentivised Putin to take action. Honestly? I did not know about that, which is a bit embarrassing but that does explain it. I do wonder why putin didnt just say america was planning on doing a colour revolution and we need to get involved to stop the inequality. NVm typing it out loud explains why lmfao. Fuck america, but I do believe an unfortunate consequence of this was that NATO got further investment from the fascist vassal states in europe, perhaps this was a gambit dont by the states?
It was indeed and I respect you deeply for recognizing it. This other guy is trying to argue it was a “fringe paramilitary” lmfao. Yeah, the guys who couped Assad were just “fringe paramilitaries”.
The thing is, America is getting cold-feet with Asia becoming more and more of a threat to them. This is why we’ve seen the actions they take now.
If Putin hadn’t invaded Ukraine, it would’ve been a launching ground for an invasion into Russia or forced submission.
With what army? Nobody wanted fund their militaries prior to the SMO, the SMO is what created what is currently the largest threat to Russia’s security.
NATO began military exercises in Ukraine at the end of 2013. In the years leading up to the SMO, NATO flew B-52 nuclear bombers up to border of Russian airspace, they ran a simulated invasion of Kaliningrad with a full force, and Putin explicitly stated that the reason the SMO launched was because there was NATO activity on the border that was indistinguishable from preparations of nuclear capabilities.
Since the SMO, none of these things have been possible. This is the reason for the SMO. It was not mindless adventurism. It was calculated and reluctant.
With…what army? The very same fascist paramilitaries that killed the trade unionists in Odessa? Or are we continously ignoring that part? Or the banderites? Azov being an example of both? Also, they had received explicit intelligence support from the U.S…
Like are we for real right now? The largest threat to Russia’s security is the West, NATO and the imperialists that reside within them.
ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT YOU LISTED ARE A BIGGER PROBLEM NOW THAN THEY WERE BEFORE THE SMO AND NOT ONLY THAT BUT THE CONVENTIONAL WESTERN MILITARIES ARRAYED AGAINST RUSSIA HAVE GROWN IN SIZE IN DIRECT RESPONSE TO THE PERCEIVED THREAT OF RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.
Do you think that the American invasion of Afghanistan reduced the number of anti-American paramilitaries in the world? Because the exact same thing happened here - a big invasion to stamp out a small threat only managed to galvanize resistance against the big invader. Who would have guessed given how many times this exact scenario has played out in history.
They were already an issue to Russia’s sovereignty before as I said and then backed up in the copypasta I literally just posted that you apparently “read”. Of course the issue would be larger in proxy military confrontation. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s not Putin’s fault for launching the SMO when it was gearing up to threaten the country on orders of imperialists. Caps-lock doesn’t change that either.
American invasion of Aghanistan was imperialist. Russian invasion of Ukraine was not. There is no comparison there. This wasn’t a “Small threat” because you keep seemingly ignoring CIA and western-intelligence sponsored paramilitaries and political organizations that reorganized the country in a violent overthrow and murdered leftists and trade-unionists as we seen in Odessa. That is not a “small threat” that is a direct threat to the sovereignty of Russia.
Could those CIA and western-intelligence sponsored paramilitaries and political organizations have ever inflicted as much damage to Russia as this war has? Don’t get me wrong - intervening to stop the persecution of ethnic Russians in Ukraine by organized neonazis is good and I do think that they had legitimate security concerns about Ukraine basically being turned into a hotbed for fascists, terrorism, and organized crime. I realize I’m not privy to all the information they have access to, but I just don’t see the strategic advantage this war has for Russia.
Have you seen the sheer violence and devastation America will bring to the periphery when it dare revolts? Hell, not even revolting, simply just choosing a path that will slightly threaten the interests of private capital in those nations owned by America or even it’s allies that cling to previous colonial vestiges like a dying tick? I mean, Chile is a great example. Beyond that, America will install dictators and brutal leaders in nations like that or support them in Indonesia and the Philippines who will gladly purge political opponents or dissidents for them. Previously, in Russia when the USSR fell, America carved out the nation financially. Pepsi was buying Russian warships for debt.
I’m sure you know this, but remarking and looking back on the brutality of what the Empire has done, what would it do now if given the chance? Just for a single moment when it’s enemies let it’s guard down like Gaddafi?
The strategic advantage is preventing Ukraine from being used as a launching ground for an invasion, or “hotbed” for terrorists or threats to spawn and attack the nation backed by it’s major rival and leader of the imperialist hegemony that controls the world.
Small threat is relative here. If you think that a fringe paramilitary is a threat on par with multiple countries’ conventional militaries, then you are a moron.
Yeah man, the dudes who couped Assad were just fringe paramilitaries. They didn’t have explicit backing of the imperialist hegemony, weapons, funding and intelligence support.
This didn’t happen in Ukraine whatsoever and were just some fringe paramilitaries that happened to take over suddenly despite having backing, funding, intelligence support and covert weapons support all the way back to the 60s where they then suddenly just took over a nation bordering a major rival of that hegemony. It just all happened out of nowhere, jumbles of images and such because I’m such a fucking moron.
я не из калининграда@lemmy.ml (not a native english speaker, I believe)
i do not support the current administrations internal actions, as capitalism has brought nothing but injustice, suffering, poverty, crime and corruption. but i absolutely do support its foreign policy, especially regarding the ukrainian question. the putin government has evolved to become one of the most effective anti-imperialist forces on the planet and even if you ignore the terrible nature of the terrorist zelensky-regime one has to be grateful to our military for fighting the biggest enemy of mankind, america.
so lets detail the happenings that led to the current situation:
(it may be important to note that the current russian administration pushes a slightly different narrative due to sadly being a right wing state)
banderite collaborators parading in front of nazi officers
the banderites (see picture), members of the fascist “organization of ukrainian nationalists” led by stepan andreyevich bandera were a gang of rapists and murderers who collaborated with the invading german hordes and assisted them by conducting acts of terror against civilians. It is important to note that popular support for them was close to zero.
after the victory of the heroic red army, the majority of those parasites fled to the west, predominantly to canada. they received funding from american and british intelligence agencies, which were more than happy to welcome “former” nazis into their own anti-communist ranks.
another subset of the banderites remained in the ukrainian ssr and conducted a campaign of terror and sabotage against the civilian population. their bloody deeds were supported by the cia and its european puppet agencies through the so called “operation aerodynamic”.
spoiler banderites
referendum on the preservation of the ussr. its results were ignored by the anti-communists
After the illegal and undemocratic dissolution of the ussr, the leaders of those fascist gangs were glorified by the ukrainian far-right, with support from the cia. efforts to further their “rehabilitation” were primarily directed by nazi expatriates in canada. outlets such as voice of america portrayed them as “heroes”. (aerodynamic, some of these were manufactured in the U.S under Operation Mockingbird like a lot of U.S state dept. bullshit)
results of the 2004 presidential election before cia intervention. this division between neonazi northwest and pro-russian southeast is visible to this day
in 2004, the west sabotaged the ukrainian presidential elections and installed their puppet, viktor andreyevich yushchenko, through a color revolution. he was a terrible leader, not only dismantling the remaining aspects of the ukrainian economy and managing to make life even more miserable than it already was, but also granting “hero of ukraine” status to banderite leaders and holocaust perpetrators stepan bandera and roman iosifovich shukhevich.
(not adding picture of 2014 ukrainian nazis since you have already said you believe in that)
in 2014, america and the west orchestrated another coup, this time not even bothering to hide the involvement of neo-nazis. the new regime perpetrated unspeakable atrocities against the russian population, whom it consideres “subhuman,” as well as against ukrainian anti-fascists. in odessa alone, 39 people were burned alive in the local trade union building.
those developments led to the revolution in the predominantly russian populated donbass-area and the creation off the donetsk and lugansk peoples republics, as well as the referendum in crimea that led to the peninsula finally rejoining russia. from 2014 till 2022 the majority of humanitarian aid to the donbass republics came from the cprf.
the reason for the smo is the ukrainian western-aligned nazi regime violating the minsk accords by refusing to demilitarize, trying to join the fascist nato-block and murdering russian civilians for years on end. the russian government showed itself extremely lenient, to lenient even, as any sensible politician would have staged a military intervention much earlier. if you need further proof for the tyrannical nature of the kievan regime just look at the fact that zelenskiy has banned all opposition parties in his country, refuses to hold elections and effectively rules as a military dictator. furthermore he has outlawed the russian language, made any negotiation with the russian state illegal and is currently selling whatever is left of his country to the highest bidder.
combine all this with the fact that the west and its puppets need to always be opposed due to them being a cancer of humanity and you’ll get a pretty good picture of why to support the russian military.
In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia (not Putin, as historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory) is only a partial, temporary, tactical one, in the context of imperialist liberation. Russia is still a capitalist state, though, so it’s a two stage strategy: first liberate colonized bourgeois states from colonizer states, and second revolution within those liberated bourgeois states.
Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers. This occurred during Putin’s administration, which is why he is especially hated by the US. So now the support for Russia is in the context of keeping the colonizers from recolonizing it, and supporting Russia to the extent that it helps other states liberate themselves. But Russia isn’t trying to “liberate” Ukraine, at least not all of Ukraine. It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas, and it’s trying to resolve the imperialist military expansion at its border.
Nothing in this copypasta addresses my arguments, which are: a) the military forces at the command of NATO have massively increased as a direct result of the SMO and b) the amount of Nazis in Ukraine’s military and government have also massively increased as a direct result of the SMO. Regardless of whether or not the invasion could be justified, it has been a failure in all respects save for territorial acquisition.
The fact that you would even post this completely irrelevant copypasta that doesn’t address what I’m saying indicates that you’re not actually interested in arguing about this, you’re debating a liberal strawman that only exists in your head and not the communist right in front of you.
a) They were planning this in the first place, with them wanting a justification for increase. SMO was a response to that. I already addressed this.
Think it would’ve been the fault of Nazis that brutally murdered unions, communists (as we seen in Odessa) and other political opponents to turn Ukraine into a Nazi rump-state.
b.) It literally has not. They were already primed, in governance and acting out political violence. Literally before the Ukrainian conflict they were used as forces against insurgents in a genocide of Eastern Ukraine. This was pointed out in the copypasta I sent.
the reason for the smo is the ukrainian western-aligned nazi regime violating the minsk accords by refusing to demilitarize, trying to join the fascist nato-block and murdering russian civilians for years on end. the russian government showed itself extremely lenient, to lenient even, as any sensible politician would have staged a military intervention much earlier. if you need further proof for the tyrannical nature of the kievan regime just look at the fact that zelenskiy has banned all opposition parties in his country, refuses to hold elections and effectively rules as a military dictator. furthermore he has outlawed the russian language, made any negotiation with the russian state illegal and is currently selling whatever is left of his country to the highest bidder. combine all this with the fact that the west and its puppets need to always be opposed due to them being a cancer of humanity and you’ll get a pretty good picture of why to support the russian military.
They were planning this in the first place, with them wanting a justification for increase. SMO was a response to that. I already addressed this.
Planning does not equal doing. Trump’s notion of increased spending among NATO members was literally laughed at when he suggested it in his first term. The SMO changed the equation for Europe and made them willing to do it when they previously weren’t.
It literally has not. They were already primed, in governance and acting out political violence. Literally before the Ukrainian conflict they were used as forces against insurgents in a genocide of Eastern Ukraine. This was pointed out in the copypasta I sent.
While Ukraine did have those tendencies prior to the SMO, remember that Zelensky was initially elected on a platform of ending the Ukranian Civil War and making Azob stand down. While he had failed to do this, it nevertheless showed that the Ukranian people did not broadly have the thirst for violence that the far-right Azov battalion had - but the SMO changed this equation too, linking far right nationalism and fascism with self defense in the minds of the Ukrainians. Instead of being de-nazified, the SMO accelerated Ukraine’s fascist shift, turning it from a nation with a radical foreign-backed far right fringe to a nation with a radical foreign-backed far right majority.
“Planning does not equal doing. Trump’s notion of increased spending among NATO members was literally laughed at when he suggested it in his first term. The SMO changed the equation for Europe and made them willing to do it when they previously weren’t.”
Except countries were already beginning to act on it in forms of austerity and assigning funding to rearmament and militarization, which Ukraine already violated an accord to prevent that after they had been couped by fascist paramilitaries that had an intelligence support/presence and aid since the 60s as documented literally by the fucking C.I.A itself. Waiting for someone to pull the trigger while they have a gun on you is some pure lib-shit idealism. Of course they’re going to SMO to protect their nation. Are you insane? I literally don’t understand the core argument here where yes Putin is at fault for literally invading a nation that had a coup from an imperialist hegemony that had literally been planning and arming for an invasion supported by the leader of said hegemony’s intelligence agency? Like the fuck?
You’re also literally fucking wrong when you look at an actual chart of military spending. Shit goes all the way back to 2017-2018, lmfao. WAY before Ukraine was invaded and…after the coup LMAO.
“remember that Zelensky was initially elected on a platform of ending the Ukranian Civil War and making Azob stand down” platform does not mean a single fucking thing with imperialist intelligence agency pulling your strings. Now he’s waging an existential war to the last man and woman for the sake of NATO and will where America has already begun to lose faith after securing nearly half of their resources.
Also why the fuck are we downplaying the amount of Nazis in their military and government? What is this shit? They literally were waging a civil war and literal genocide against Russian-speakers in Eastern Ukraine and murdering trade unionists and communists WITH SUPPORT OF THE WESTERN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES FROM THE 60S BACK. That’s fringe to you? That’s a fringe-minority? What the fuck are you literally talking about?
You keep repeating things that I’m not contesting, as though you think that they run counter to my argument. Putting US support for far right extremists in caps lock doesn’t change the fact that Russia’s Special Military Operation also massively empowered those extremists and reinvigorated NATO as a global military alliance.
Oh and Russia’s moves in Ukraine started with the takeover of Crimea. That military move can be rationally defended as the counterreaction to it from the west was relatively small (the area on the graph you helpfully circled), but the full-scale invasion cannot be defended on the same grounds because it sparked a much larger response (the area to the right of what you circled).
Except what I did put in caps-lock changes entirely the reason for the SMO which you keep ignoring. The results are meaningless. The reason behind it is.
Putting US support for far right extremists in caps lock doesn’t change the fact that Russia’s Special Military Operation also massively empowered those extremists and reinvigorated NATO as a global military alliance.
Any resistance of any type will embolden imperialists and examples of this are numerous. In other words, Imperialists will never back off even after being defeated(ex Cuba, Yemen, Vietnam after defeating the french). Saying that as an argument against the SMO is just nonsense and even foolish.
Are you really that naive? Do you really think that any resistance will not cause the imperialists to go wild?
Thats certaintly a good point, I do agree this conflict ending the way it has had a consequence of reinteresting the fascists in europe with NATO and their local military industries.
If you go to page 5 it certainly paints that picture, I was initially going to argue that because of trump pushing for the usa to exit nato around his capaign season, they began funding their local military industries more, but they have been putting more money into NATO percentage wise since 2021, at an exponential rate. Perhaps the consern for the USA voting in trump forced the western world to fearfully put more money in to NATO, as an effort to persuade trump that it is worth the usa’s interest to remain in the organisation, but i am not sure, what do you think?
Think it would’ve been the fault of Nazis that brutally murdered unions, communists (as we seen in Odessa) and other political opponents to turn Ukraine into a Nazi rump-state.
If Putin hadn’t invaded Ukraine, NATO would be laughing off Trump’s demand to increase military spending just like they did the first time. Hell, considering how much more power Trump is weilding this time around, that could have directly lead to the US leaving NATO as he has often threatened to do.
However, Putin’s invasion completely reinvigorated the desire of other countries to be in NATO, turning the demand to increase spending from a silly political whim to a credible ultimatum. No, it isn’t solely Putin’s fault, but the SMO played directly into the American empire’s hands.
“If Hamas hadn’t attacked Israel on Oct. 7, the genocide could have been avoided. However, Israel was reinvigorated by the attack.”
“If Kim Il-sung hadn’t attacked the South in June of 1950, the Korean War could have been avoided. However, the US was reinvigorated by the invasion.”
Some conflicts are already baked in. Submitting to your oppressor isn’t the answer.
If Putin hadn’t invaded Ukraine, it would’ve been a launching ground for an invasion into Russia or forced submission. Trump isn’t wielding any more power than Biden who also demanded increased military spending.
NATO was always an imperialist organization made up of colonizer states eager to form a bloc against the spread of “gommunist USSR” which no longer exists. So now it is an entity that functions to serve the imperialists of the western hegemony. This was shown when Ukraine was couped by far-right nationalists with assistance from western intelligence to make a entity right on the edge of Russia’s border when it began distancing itself from the West. I’d argue Ukraine becoming a Nazi state was more of the fault here than anything Putin ever did.
Which, weirdly, Ukraine had a lot of support from nato states before in their little nazi adventure?? I wonder what that means.
Was Ukraine really exploring this at the time?
Check the copypasta. Yes, very much so. With explicit U.S support all the way back to the 60s leading up to the violation of the minsk accords and fascist takeover. Classic imperialism.
Okay yeah I can see why you sent the text dump, you were trying to specify that the Americans were planning on pushing some colour revolution bullshit within the region which is what incentivised Putin to take action. Honestly? I did not know about that, which is a bit embarrassing but that does explain it. I do wonder why putin didnt just say america was planning on doing a colour revolution and we need to get involved to stop the inequality. NVm typing it out loud explains why lmfao. Fuck america, but I do believe an unfortunate consequence of this was that NATO got further investment from the fascist vassal states in europe, perhaps this was a gambit dont by the states?
It was indeed and I respect you deeply for recognizing it. This other guy is trying to argue it was a “fringe paramilitary” lmfao. Yeah, the guys who couped Assad were just “fringe paramilitaries”.
The thing is, America is getting cold-feet with Asia becoming more and more of a threat to them. This is why we’ve seen the actions they take now.
Ill give it a read one sec
With what army? Nobody wanted fund their militaries prior to the SMO, the SMO is what created what is currently the largest threat to Russia’s security.
NATO began military exercises in Ukraine at the end of 2013. In the years leading up to the SMO, NATO flew B-52 nuclear bombers up to border of Russian airspace, they ran a simulated invasion of Kaliningrad with a full force, and Putin explicitly stated that the reason the SMO launched was because there was NATO activity on the border that was indistinguishable from preparations of nuclear capabilities.
Since the SMO, none of these things have been possible. This is the reason for the SMO. It was not mindless adventurism. It was calculated and reluctant.
With…what army? The very same fascist paramilitaries that killed the trade unionists in Odessa? Or are we continously ignoring that part? Or the banderites? Azov being an example of both? Also, they had received explicit intelligence support from the U.S…
Like are we for real right now? The largest threat to Russia’s security is the West, NATO and the imperialists that reside within them.
ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT YOU LISTED ARE A BIGGER PROBLEM NOW THAN THEY WERE BEFORE THE SMO AND NOT ONLY THAT BUT THE CONVENTIONAL WESTERN MILITARIES ARRAYED AGAINST RUSSIA HAVE GROWN IN SIZE IN DIRECT RESPONSE TO THE PERCEIVED THREAT OF RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.
Do you think that the American invasion of Afghanistan reduced the number of anti-American paramilitaries in the world? Because the exact same thing happened here - a big invasion to stamp out a small threat only managed to galvanize resistance against the big invader. Who would have guessed given how many times this exact scenario has played out in history.
They were already an issue to Russia’s sovereignty before as I said and then backed up in the copypasta I literally just posted that you apparently “read”. Of course the issue would be larger in proxy military confrontation. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s not Putin’s fault for launching the SMO when it was gearing up to threaten the country on orders of imperialists. Caps-lock doesn’t change that either.
American invasion of Aghanistan was imperialist. Russian invasion of Ukraine was not. There is no comparison there. This wasn’t a “Small threat” because you keep seemingly ignoring CIA and western-intelligence sponsored paramilitaries and political organizations that reorganized the country in a violent overthrow and murdered leftists and trade-unionists as we seen in Odessa. That is not a “small threat” that is a direct threat to the sovereignty of Russia.
Could those CIA and western-intelligence sponsored paramilitaries and political organizations have ever inflicted as much damage to Russia as this war has? Don’t get me wrong - intervening to stop the persecution of ethnic Russians in Ukraine by organized neonazis is good and I do think that they had legitimate security concerns about Ukraine basically being turned into a hotbed for fascists, terrorism, and organized crime. I realize I’m not privy to all the information they have access to, but I just don’t see the strategic advantage this war has for Russia.
Have you seen the sheer violence and devastation America will bring to the periphery when it dare revolts? Hell, not even revolting, simply just choosing a path that will slightly threaten the interests of private capital in those nations owned by America or even it’s allies that cling to previous colonial vestiges like a dying tick? I mean, Chile is a great example. Beyond that, America will install dictators and brutal leaders in nations like that or support them in Indonesia and the Philippines who will gladly purge political opponents or dissidents for them. Previously, in Russia when the USSR fell, America carved out the nation financially. Pepsi was buying Russian warships for debt.
I’m sure you know this, but remarking and looking back on the brutality of what the Empire has done, what would it do now if given the chance? Just for a single moment when it’s enemies let it’s guard down like Gaddafi?
The strategic advantage is preventing Ukraine from being used as a launching ground for an invasion, or “hotbed” for terrorists or threats to spawn and attack the nation backed by it’s major rival and leader of the imperialist hegemony that controls the world.
Small threat is relative here. If you think that a fringe paramilitary is a threat on par with multiple countries’ conventional militaries, then you are a moron.
Yeah man, the dudes who couped Assad were just fringe paramilitaries. They didn’t have explicit backing of the imperialist hegemony, weapons, funding and intelligence support.
This didn’t happen in Ukraine whatsoever and were just some fringe paramilitaries that happened to take over suddenly despite having backing, funding, intelligence support and covert weapons support all the way back to the 60s where they then suddenly just took over a nation bordering a major rival of that hegemony. It just all happened out of nowhere, jumbles of images and such because I’m such a fucking moron.
Get real.
Also, Time for the copypasta!
я не из калининграда@lemmy.ml (not a native english speaker, I believe)
i do not support the current administrations internal actions, as capitalism has brought nothing but injustice, suffering, poverty, crime and corruption. but i absolutely do support its foreign policy, especially regarding the ukrainian question. the putin government has evolved to become one of the most effective anti-imperialist forces on the planet and even if you ignore the terrible nature of the terrorist zelensky-regime one has to be grateful to our military for fighting the biggest enemy of mankind, america.
so lets detail the happenings that led to the current situation:
(it may be important to note that the current russian administration pushes a slightly different narrative due to sadly being a right wing state)
banderite collaborators parading in front of nazi officers the banderites (see picture), members of the fascist “organization of ukrainian nationalists” led by stepan andreyevich bandera were a gang of rapists and murderers who collaborated with the invading german hordes and assisted them by conducting acts of terror against civilians. It is important to note that popular support for them was close to zero. after the victory of the heroic red army, the majority of those parasites fled to the west, predominantly to canada. they received funding from american and british intelligence agencies, which were more than happy to welcome “former” nazis into their own anti-communist ranks. another subset of the banderites remained in the ukrainian ssr and conducted a campaign of terror and sabotage against the civilian population. their bloody deeds were supported by the cia and its european puppet agencies through the so called “operation aerodynamic”.
spoiler banderites
referendum on the preservation of the ussr. its results were ignored by the anti-communists
After the illegal and undemocratic dissolution of the ussr, the leaders of those fascist gangs were glorified by the ukrainian far-right, with support from the cia. efforts to further their “rehabilitation” were primarily directed by nazi expatriates in canada. outlets such as voice of america portrayed them as “heroes”. (aerodynamic, some of these were manufactured in the U.S under Operation Mockingbird like a lot of U.S state dept. bullshit)
in 2004, the west sabotaged the ukrainian presidential elections and installed their puppet, viktor andreyevich yushchenko, through a color revolution. he was a terrible leader, not only dismantling the remaining aspects of the ukrainian economy and managing to make life even more miserable than it already was, but also granting “hero of ukraine” status to banderite leaders and holocaust perpetrators stepan bandera and roman iosifovich shukhevich.
(not adding picture of 2014 ukrainian nazis since you have already said you believe in that)
in 2014, america and the west orchestrated another coup, this time not even bothering to hide the involvement of neo-nazis. the new regime perpetrated unspeakable atrocities against the russian population, whom it consideres “subhuman,” as well as against ukrainian anti-fascists. in odessa alone, 39 people were burned alive in the local trade union building.
those developments led to the revolution in the predominantly russian populated donbass-area and the creation off the donetsk and lugansk peoples republics, as well as the referendum in crimea that led to the peninsula finally rejoining russia. from 2014 till 2022 the majority of humanitarian aid to the donbass republics came from the cprf.
the reason for the smo is the ukrainian western-aligned nazi regime violating the minsk accords by refusing to demilitarize, trying to join the fascist nato-block and murdering russian civilians for years on end. the russian government showed itself extremely lenient, to lenient even, as any sensible politician would have staged a military intervention much earlier. if you need further proof for the tyrannical nature of the kievan regime just look at the fact that zelenskiy has banned all opposition parties in his country, refuses to hold elections and effectively rules as a military dictator. furthermore he has outlawed the russian language, made any negotiation with the russian state illegal and is currently selling whatever is left of his country to the highest bidder. combine all this with the fact that the west and its puppets need to always be opposed due to them being a cancer of humanity and you’ll get a pretty good picture of why to support the russian military.
[Query: Do communists have to support Russia?]
@davel@lemmygrad.ml
Also, Ukraine really does have a fascism problem and has for a long time, and the coup government has materially supported it.
Nothing in this copypasta addresses my arguments, which are: a) the military forces at the command of NATO have massively increased as a direct result of the SMO and b) the amount of Nazis in Ukraine’s military and government have also massively increased as a direct result of the SMO. Regardless of whether or not the invasion could be justified, it has been a failure in all respects save for territorial acquisition.
The fact that you would even post this completely irrelevant copypasta that doesn’t address what I’m saying indicates that you’re not actually interested in arguing about this, you’re debating a liberal strawman that only exists in your head and not the communist right in front of you.
a) They were planning this in the first place, with them wanting a justification for increase. SMO was a response to that. I already addressed this.
b.) It literally has not. They were already primed, in governance and acting out political violence. Literally before the Ukrainian conflict they were used as forces against insurgents in a genocide of Eastern Ukraine. This was pointed out in the copypasta I sent.
Do we need pictures next?
Planning does not equal doing. Trump’s notion of increased spending among NATO members was literally laughed at when he suggested it in his first term. The SMO changed the equation for Europe and made them willing to do it when they previously weren’t.
While Ukraine did have those tendencies prior to the SMO, remember that Zelensky was initially elected on a platform of ending the Ukranian Civil War and making Azob stand down. While he had failed to do this, it nevertheless showed that the Ukranian people did not broadly have the thirst for violence that the far-right Azov battalion had - but the SMO changed this equation too, linking far right nationalism and fascism with self defense in the minds of the Ukrainians. Instead of being de-nazified, the SMO accelerated Ukraine’s fascist shift, turning it from a nation with a radical foreign-backed far right fringe to a nation with a radical foreign-backed far right majority.
“Planning does not equal doing. Trump’s notion of increased spending among NATO members was literally laughed at when he suggested it in his first term. The SMO changed the equation for Europe and made them willing to do it when they previously weren’t.”
Except countries were already beginning to act on it in forms of austerity and assigning funding to rearmament and militarization, which Ukraine already violated an accord to prevent that after they had been couped by fascist paramilitaries that had an intelligence support/presence and aid since the 60s as documented literally by the fucking C.I.A itself. Waiting for someone to pull the trigger while they have a gun on you is some pure lib-shit idealism. Of course they’re going to SMO to protect their nation. Are you insane? I literally don’t understand the core argument here where yes Putin is at fault for literally invading a nation that had a coup from an imperialist hegemony that had literally been planning and arming for an invasion supported by the leader of said hegemony’s intelligence agency? Like the fuck?
You’re also literally fucking wrong when you look at an actual chart of military spending. Shit goes all the way back to 2017-2018, lmfao. WAY before Ukraine was invaded and…after the coup LMAO.
“remember that Zelensky was initially elected on a platform of ending the Ukranian Civil War and making Azob stand down” platform does not mean a single fucking thing with imperialist intelligence agency pulling your strings. Now he’s waging an existential war to the last man and woman for the sake of NATO and will where America has already begun to lose faith after securing nearly half of their resources.
Also why the fuck are we downplaying the amount of Nazis in their military and government? What is this shit? They literally were waging a civil war and literal genocide against Russian-speakers in Eastern Ukraine and murdering trade unionists and communists WITH SUPPORT OF THE WESTERN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES FROM THE 60S BACK. That’s fringe to you? That’s a fringe-minority? What the fuck are you literally talking about?
You keep repeating things that I’m not contesting, as though you think that they run counter to my argument. Putting US support for far right extremists in caps lock doesn’t change the fact that Russia’s Special Military Operation also massively empowered those extremists and reinvigorated NATO as a global military alliance.
Oh and Russia’s moves in Ukraine started with the takeover of Crimea. That military move can be rationally defended as the counterreaction to it from the west was relatively small (the area on the graph you helpfully circled), but the full-scale invasion cannot be defended on the same grounds because it sparked a much larger response (the area to the right of what you circled).
Except what I did put in caps-lock changes entirely the reason for the SMO which you keep ignoring. The results are meaningless. The reason behind it is.
Any resistance of any type will embolden imperialists and examples of this are numerous. In other words, Imperialists will never back off even after being defeated(ex Cuba, Yemen, Vietnam after defeating the french). Saying that as an argument against the SMO is just nonsense and even foolish.
Are you really that naive? Do you really think that any resistance will not cause the imperialists to go wild?
Thats certaintly a good point, I do agree this conflict ending the way it has had a consequence of reinteresting the fascists in europe with NATO and their local military industries.
If you go to page 5 it certainly paints that picture, I was initially going to argue that because of trump pushing for the usa to exit nato around his capaign season, they began funding their local military industries more, but they have been putting more money into NATO percentage wise since 2021, at an exponential rate. Perhaps the consern for the USA voting in trump forced the western world to fearfully put more money in to NATO, as an effort to persuade trump that it is worth the usa’s interest to remain in the organisation, but i am not sure, what do you think?