Posting here bc it’s just YouTube drama, but Hasan rightly being called out by “Small Talk Kills” (LexLoser on rednote, recently banned or deleted from TikTok)

  • starkillerfish [she/her]@hexbear.net
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    2 months ago

    the problem with this logic of appealing to the masses is where to draw the line? whats are the things you can compromise and why? constantly appealing to the majority opinion will just lead you to adopt reactionary positions.

    im not sure having a spectrum of content (joe rogan of the left) is the solution here

    • spectre [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      2 months ago

      I’m not suggesting “constantly appealing to the majority opinion”. Your other questions are valid. The answer to both is “whatever will effectively communicate a leftward viewpoint”.

      Hasan connects his audience to content that is more left than him through collaborations and open shout outs. Next step is for others to produce content like this that is now directly critical of him. Nothing Hasan does pushes his audience rightward, they have the opportunity to like AOC and Bernie and either stay there or move on.

      I also would never take someone seriously about hating Bernie from the left, if they never liked Bernie at some point pre-2020. “Being normal” is more effective propaganda than “being right”. The trump era shows clearly that nobody gives a shit about the facts. If you want to build a left, it means having some sort of mass appeal. This can be done without sacrificing core principles.

      • starkillerfish [she/her]@hexbear.net
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        2 months ago

        yeah i agree with you. mass appeal is needed, i’m just super cautious how it is/should be done on the left. it feels more geared towards softening/abandoning core principles, rather than effective communication as you said.

      • I don’t watch streamers and stuff but I generally agree with your points about Hasan’s role. What’d you mean by this though?

        I also would never take someone seriously about hating Bernie from the left, if they never liked Bernie at some point pre-2020.

        • spectre [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          2 months ago

          I’m coming on a bit strong in my phrasing (I don’t fully agree with myself there), but I have a bit of a difficult time imagining someone in the US having strong socialist convictions without having been pro-bernie in '16 or '20 or both.

          I suppose it’s possible, and it’ll eventually become commonplace as there are many young people who never had the opportunity to see the Bernie campaigns in real time.

          It just would be odd to me for someone to be like “yeah Ive thought of Bernie as a Zionist bastard since 2002” vs “yeah Bernie seemed like our best hope when he was running, but obviously that was crushed by the establishment and he refused to evolve any further, so there is no place for him in the future left at this point” or something along those lines.

          • Ah, yeah, that makes sense. There were a lot of people at the time that did shit on him though. I was past liberal electoral politics by 2016, but I also wasn’t as young as most of his supporters anyway, so I wasn’t too enthusiastic about Bernie but still did prefer a Bernie win against the rest. My friends dunked on me even for that back then. I just knew it wouldn’t ultimately lead to what everyone wanted, much less anything revolutionary, he just seemed like a compromise.

            Although I’m sure some people who knew about him better probably did specifically reject Bernie for being a Zionist for a long time. I just didn’t pay any attention to him until 2016, I’m sure most didn’t either, so it was easy to not notice his shit stances. It’s an age and information thing though. I can see how Bernie would’ve been a magnet for radicalizing for 16-21 year olds at the time. That’s essentially how we got the DSA that we have today, which isn’t great but whatever.

            I was always just kinda lukewarm on him.

    • spectre [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      2 months ago

      Double commenting cause I wanted to tie this to real life: since November I can pretty confidently yeah Democrats for their failures to stop Trump when talking to my local liberals. I can also safely recommend they watch Hasan who does the pipelining that I already explained. I can also confidently say to them “yeah I don’t agree with everything he says, but he makes good points and stuff”. Of course, I’m coming at it from the other side, but it will produce good discussion opportunities. This is effective propaganda.

    • RedWizard [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      2 months ago

      I can’t say that I’ve seen him adopt any reactionary positions as yet. In 2020, while in lockdown, I started watching Hasan, and since then, I’ve actually grown beyond some of Hasan’s public “takes”. Now when I watch his content, I do find myself being critical of what he might have to say, or who he is engaging with. I, too, am not interested in hearing what Sanders and AOC have to say at this point. I view them as a lightning rod for revolutionary energy, to redirect it into the ground. That being said, they are also attracting people, potentially younger people than me, to the same train of thought that led me to my current positions. Movement building doesn’t happen overnight. I took decades for people like Ho Chi Men, Mao, and the Bolsheviks to build their parties and undertake their revolutions. When revolution came, they had built dual power in their countries, they had gathered support from within their militaries, and were in prime positions to sustain their revolutions. The Bolsheviks formed by splintering off from the Mensheviks, the Russian Social Democratic Party of the time. Obviously, the Russian context in the early 1900s is very different from the American Context now. However, though, in America, we do not even have a party of “Social Democrats” to fight against Republicans and Democrats alike. We can call the Democratic Party the “moderate wing of fascism” all we want, but let us be honest here, there is no “moderate wing of fascism” in America, there is just Fascism.

      So with all that being said, as long as the critiques of Hasan are coming from the left, that just presents as opportunities for viewers to consider those positions, and potentially move further left. I can’t say one way or the other, as an outsider, what Hasan’s intentions are with brushing up even closer with the Democratic Party. It could be argued that due to their current internal crisis over the response to Donald Trump, that now is the right time to agitate in such a way that moves people to Independent or even 3rd party choices. Could Hasan be attempting to insert himself into this crisis as a means of pushing that line? Is he simply trying to become a functional asset to that movement? His actions make me speculate that could be the case. However, I have no way of really knowing. What I do know, though, is that Burnie has found himself in this position, yet again. He is building popular support for a popular message, using working-class framing. He clearly believes this is the path forward. Likewise, he is on record saying people should consider running as Independents instead of Democrats, so even he isn’t fully committing people to the Democrats here. Still. From 1990 to 2024, Sanders has raked in a cool $80,000+ from Pro-Israel interest groups, $800+ in 2024 alone. AOC over her lifetime in office sits at $387. It’s difficult to ignore.

      Could a rise in “Social Democracy” eventually lead to a rise in support for “Socialist” movements? I have no idea. I do know that America is ideologically far behind in that regard. Because we’re faced with these realities every day, I feel like we lose sight of the long game. We want things to change now, or next week, when we (as in American Socialists) do not even have the same level of support we’ve historically had in the past. At it’s peak, that level of support was 5% of the population. I don’t know what building that movement would look like. I often look into Socialist parties in the country and find that every Socialist has some critique, complaint, or issue with every other Socialist party. Some are material, like being a cult, some seem to come down to a meme, like being a Trot with a Newspaper.

      The binary of the Burnie Bro and its consequences are in full display. The collapse of Burnie’s campaign in 2016 pushed people into both left wing, and right-wing populist circles, leading us here and now. We couldn’t capture all those Burnie Bros on the left then, but it should be worth trying to capture them this time around. Maybe this is the calculous Hasan is making, who can say.

      • starkillerfish [she/her]@hexbear.net
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        2 months ago

        thank you for such a detailed reply! im also not even sure what Bernie is attempting to do right now. Build up to a presidential campaign as an independent? Surely he understands that the dems arent going to let him anywhere near the nomination. and if he’s not doing it for his presidency, what type of movement is he trying build?

        • RedWizard [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          2 months ago

          It is a very odd situation. Maybe he is trying to build broad support for his message to prove to the Democrat establishment that this message works, and they should be adopting it. I know some democratic senators have already tried adopting his working-class message, regardless of how forced it sounds coming out of their mouths. There is a current of moderate Democrats who really hate this idea, and are actively resisting it within the part apparatus. I’ve presumed, since this whole crisis started, that this crisis could lead to a fracturing of the Democratic Party. I don’t know if that leads to a 3rd party, or if that means the moderate Democrats just become moderate Republicans. This contradiction is driving these developments, and who can say when or how it will end.

          Burnie denied that he was building a new party, he said that “now isn’t the time”. It begs the question, though, “if not now, then when?”. Maybe now is not the right time because he still believes he can win over the Democrats. The midterms are very likely where this message will be tested, along with the Democratic Party as a whole. Though, I think, a crushing defeat in the mid-terms would lead to the splitting of the Democratic Party, I’m not sure what things look like at the end of these 8 years. At that point, it might be too late to form another party at all. Maybe he has plans sooner. I really think if him, and the progressive caucus were to split off the Democrats and form their own party, it would absolutely gain traction. The timing of such a thing would be critical, however.